6.5 creedmoor hunting ammo

[Formidilosus]

KILLING POWER

Good read on energy. 800 lbs for elk 650 for whitetail is what I determine my maximum distances. And it has served me well.

First, I do not get personal with what I say as a general rule. However, pretty much anything Chuck Hawk says should be immediately ignored. He touts more nonsense than any other writer I have seen.

Second, “ft-lbs energy” is not a wounding mechanism, and should have no bearing in how far someone will shoot an animal. The only things that matter are that the bullet penetrates deep enough to reach vitals, the impact velocity is high enough to ensure expansion, and that both of those things happen inside/through vital organs. Energy does not tell you any one of those.

 

[Dusty2426]

First, I do not get personal with what I say as a general rule. However, pretty much anything Chuck Hawk says should be immediately ignored. He touts more nonsense than any other writer I have seen.

Second, “ft-lbs energy” is not a wounding mechanism, and should have no bearing in how far someone will shoot an animal. The only things that matter are that the bullet penetrates deep enough to reach vitals, the impact velocity is high enough to ensure expansion, and that both of those things happen inside/through vital organs. Energy does not tell you any one of those.

Energy and velocity go hand in hand

 

[Ryan Avery]

Energy and velocity go hand in hand

I would say bullet design and velocity go hand in hand.


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[Dusty2426]

I would say bullet design and velocity go hand in hand.


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I won’t argue that at all. I was going to add that you should match the bullet design to the total equation

 

[Formidilosus]

Energy and velocity go hand in hand

How much energy do I need for a Berger to expand? TSX? Partition?

 

[Dusty2426]

How much energy do I need for a Berger to expand? TSX? Partition?

Easy to figure that. At approx 800-850 yards 140 Creedmoor will be running close to 1800fps which will be close To 1000ft lbs per energy. 1800 is recommended for Berger this is all approximation. Velocity helps translate energy transfer along with bullet design it varies

 

[Formidilosus]

Easy to figure that. At approx 800-850 yards 140 Creedmoor will be running close to 1800fps which will be close To 1000ft lbs per energy. 1800 is recommended for Berger this is all approximation. Velocity helps translate energy transfer along with bullet design it varies

So you need 1000 ft-lbs energy to open a Berger, or 1,800fps?

So if Berger says 1,800fps to expand- why do I need to know or care what ft-lbs it is?

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I’m just trying to understand the logic. I’ve been in quite a few ballistics labs and have never been told that bullets need a certain energy requirement to work. But have in a very case been told a minimum impact velocity.


So much “energy” does it take to penetrate deep enough on a deer?

 

[Dusty2426]

So you need 1000 ft-lbs energy to open a Berger, or 1,800fps?

So if Berger says 1,800fps to expand- why do I need to know or care what ft-lbs it is?

You may not care. You don’t have to care. Point is you can work towards ethical shooting distance for an animal by velocity OR energy either will get you results just depends on which road you want to go down. I prefer energy delivered to animal as my formula for my maximum distance of a caliber. And that hinges on which bullet that rifle shoots the best. I’m not saying it’s the ONLY way just the way I was taught and prefer. It works for me and is only an option. You do you big un.

I build my own rifles and load my own rounds it’s just the direction I work backwards from

 

[Dusty2426]

So you need 1000 ft-lbs energy to open a Berger, or 1,800fps?

So if Berger says 1,800fps to expand- why do I need to know or care what ft-lbs it is?

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So much “energy” does it take to penetrate deep enough on a deer?

^^depends on bullet used.^^

 

[Dusty2426]

How does one figure which bullet needs to have x amount of energy?

Which bullets need the most or least amount of energy? How do we calculate this? This would certainly be helpful when figuring which bullets to use for hunting at certain distance.

use a kinetic energy calculator. It’s not for determining anything but maximum energy at distance compared to velocity at same distance. Depending on what weight bullet I’m running at what velocity I look at energy delivered on target to determine my maximum effective distance for a caliber. If my end goal is 800 ftlbs then I use that to determine if that caliber or bullet weight will reach the maximum distance I want to kill. If not I switch guns/loads for the job.

 

[mt100gr.]

I'm not understanding why you set an end goal determined by an irrelevant metric. You include/consider velocity to get there, why not just find your maximum distance for an appropriate velocity to make the bullet perform? We're obviously talking about hunting bullets here, and it's clear that you are setting your limits based on bullet performance, I just struggle with glossing over "minimum velocity" I guess. You could achieve your end goal of energy with any bullet in a given caliber, even a FMJ, but that doesn't mean it will perform. I don't understand how an arbitrary benchmark of x ft lbs guarantees the bullet will penetrate AND upset as it's designed to do.

 

[flinginairos]

Thought I would pass on my experiences with the 6.5 this weekend. Took two whitetails with the Barnes VOR-TX LR 127gr. First a big mature doe at 54 yards. The second a small doe at 100. The first doe was facing me head on, feeding with her head down. Had a good rest and put the bullet through her neck (blew her spine in half) and into the chest cavity, between both lungs, and through the liver and bottom side of the gut. Bullet was almost poking through the hide in the skin of her belly in front of her back leg. LIGHTS OUT. She never even twitched when the gun cracked. Bullet is perfect!

The second was a very small doe. Shot was right behind the shoulder. Good sized exit hole. Crazy blood trail. She ran about 80 yards.

All the other deer I’ve shot with the 6.5 have been with the ELD-X. I have never recovered a bullet but have found a few small lead fragments after hitting heavy bone. All my shots have been under 200 yards so take it fwiw. The Barnes did impress me this weekend!


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[luke moffat]

MT100gr is right. Sure you can calc KE, but it doesn’t mean all that much. For example, ELD-X will reliably expand down to 1,800 FPS (per Hornady). For a 143 grain 6.5, this means you have ~ 1,000 ft-lbs. for a 220 grain 300 win mag, you have ~1,500 ft-lbs. LRABs expand at an even lower velocity. Each will occur at a different range. You can back calc KE, correlate to CD, or determine some other ancillary value, but why waste your time?

Hornady actually claims 1600 fps minimum impact velocity but my sample of one that I recovered at a calculated 1650 fps showed zero expansion at all.

 

[orelkaddict]

Well I guess I'll jump into this pissing match!! Last year I shot my blacktail buck with a 6.5 Creed using 140 Berger vld Hunting, had amazing results as he went maybe 20 yards. Was a 212 yard shot. This year my daughter used the same rifle with 143 Hornady ELD-X and nearly an identical shot at 204 yards, less than stellar results IMO. Granted he was dead on his feet but it was taking long enough that I handed her the Lapua and said to finish him. 300 grain Berger dropped him instantly without any suffering, that's what I want. The Creed may get the job done, but I'd rather get it done a little faster. To the person asking what a 6.5 can't do compared to a 30, my question is are you freaking serious???? Hit something with a golf ball versus a bowling ball and get back to me on that. As others have said, if at all possible start reloading and open new worlds for what you have.

 

[mt100gr.]

Well I guess I'll jump into this pissing match!! Last year I shot my blacktail buck with a 6.5 Creed using 140 Berger vld Hunting, had amazing results as he went maybe 20 yards. Was a 212 yard shot. This year my daughter used the same rifle with 143 Hornady ELD-X and nearly an identical shot at 204 yards, less than stellar results IMO. Granted he was dead on his feet but it was taking long enough that I handed her the Lapua and said to finish him. 300 grain Berger dropped him instantly without any suffering, that's what I want. The Creed may get the job done, but I'd rather get it done a little faster. To the person asking what a 6.5 can't do compared to a 30, my question is are you freaking serious???? Hit something with a golf ball versus a bowling ball and get back to me on that. As others have said, if at all possible start reloading and open new worlds for what you have.

What was the impact velocity (ballpark is fine) of that ELDX bullet? And where on the animal did it hit? I have seen them work well from basically point blank out to 300 or so yards but it really seems that there's a lot of variation in guys' results with them. To be clear, I have not seen them bang-flop anything but with shots thru the lungs, no shoulder, I guess there haven't really been any surprises. I ask as I am considering another 6.5 of some denomination and want to like the 143 eldx.

 

[Formidilosus]

Well I guess I'll jump into this pissing match!! Last year I shot my blacktail buck with a 6.5 Creed using 140 Berger vld Hunting, had amazing results as he went maybe 20 yards. Was a 212 yard shot. This year my daughter used the same rifle with 143 Hornady ELD-X and nearly an identical shot at 204 yards, less than stellar results IMO. Granted he was dead on his feet but it was taking long enough that I handed her the Lapua and said to finish him. 300 grain Berger dropped him instantly without any suffering, that's what I want. The Creed may get the job done, but I'd rather get it done a little faster. To the person asking what a 6.5 can't do compared to a 30, my question is are you freaking serious???? Hit something with a golf ball versus a bowling ball and get back to me on that. As others have said, if at all possible start reloading and open new worlds for what you have.

Yes I’m serious, and no your analogy is not correct.


Part of my job deals with terminal ballistics- actual medically correct and scientifically sound terminal ballistics. Not gun store myth. I have personally killed hundreds (that’s plural) of deer in hunting and culling. I have been a first person witness to 2-3 times that many. A significant portion got field autopsies performed on them. A sample of one is nearly meaningless. Since you used it- I have shot multiple deer, with multiple different bullets with the 338L that had no reaction to being hit. Matter of fact I have shot a single deer more than twice with .224, .243, .284, .308, and .338 bullets because the deer have no reaction to being hit. Imagine shooting a 120lb buck three times with a 300 RUM at less than 250 yards because he just stood there. Is the 300RUM not a good killer?



Yes with the right bullets 30 cals and 338’s can make a bigger wound all else being equal. But all else isn’t equal. You have to hit with it, and when you miss (because everyone misses at some point) seeing the trace/splash is massive in making a second shot hit. Unless we’re talking 10+ pound braked guns- no one shoots a boomer as well as they shoot a powder puff, and since the smaller guns do create enough tissue damage.... they’re easy to kill with.

 

[Ryan Avery]

I don't see it as a 'Pissing Match" there's some good stuff here. First off, I would have zero issues shooting animals with a 6.5 CM under 500 yards. People also need to have a realistic expectation of what a 6.5 CM is. It's very efficient but it's not just going to knock animals off there feet with the consistency of a big magnum. Hell, half the time elk take a fatal hit and still stay on their feet a bit with big 300 and 338s.

I get both sides of this debate. I love big 300 mags but I can see where a backpacking rig in a big magnum could cause some accuracy issues at longer ranges. I see this all the time at the range and shooting with people in the mountains!

orelkadict, if you had the 338 LM with you why not just shoot the deer with it, to begin with? Probably because it not that fun for her to shoot?


I like to use big 300 at around 9 pounds for LR hunting and I get out and wear that sucker out before I use it on animals.

Under 500 yards with practice pretty much any decent caliber and bullet will work just fine.

 

[orelkaddict]

What was the impact velocity (ballpark is fine) of that ELDX bullet? And where on the animal did it hit? I have seen them work well from basically point blank out to 300 or so yards but it really seems that there's a lot of variation in guys' results with them. To be clear, I have not seen them bang-flop anything but with shots thru the lungs, no shoulder, I guess there haven't really been any surprises. I ask as I am considering another 6.5 of some denomination and want to like the 143 eldx.

Both shots were hard quartering away with the bullets entering thru the rear quarter going length and ending in the opposing shoulder. Impact velocity was roughly 2400 on both. The Hornady didn't explode like the Berger, But it didn't hold together like a Barnes either. They tend to shoot great groups and the B.C. seems pretty good when building charts for long range. I still believe that 1 of the biggest mistakes people make when hunting is not choosing the appropriate bullet for the task at hand.

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Ryan, she was trying her hand with what is now her rifle. And I didn't want to drag it out of the ruck lol. I really like the 6.5 Creed as I'm building another 1 for my son. I think they're a great mid caliber, but when it comes to elk and bears I prefer more of a hammer. Hence why I hunt black bears with a 458 Socom when in the thick shit, I wanna make a big ass hole. After years of guiding I have drawn my own opinions on what I've seen work and what has worked even better. A good friend of mine kills his elk every year with a 243, I don't think its a great choice but he gets it done every year so its hard to argue with the proof

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Yes I’m serious, and no your analogy is not correct.


Part of my job deals with terminal ballistics- actual medically correct and scientifically sound terminal ballistics. Not gun store myth. I have personally killed hundreds (that’s plural) of deer in hunting and culling. I have been a first person witness to 2-3 times that many. A significant portion got field autopsies performed on them. A sample of one is nearly meaningless. Since you used it- I have shot multiple deer, with multiple different bullets with the 338L that had no reaction to being hit. Matter of fact I have shot a single deer more than twice with .224, .243, .284, .308, and .338 bullets because the deer have no reaction to being hit. Imagine shooting a 120lb buck three times with a 300 RUM at less than 250 yards because he just stood there. Is the 300RUM not a good killer?



Yes with the right bullets 30 cals and 338’s can make a bigger wound all else being equal. But all else isn’t equal. You have to hit with it, and when you miss (because everyone misses at some point) seeing the trace/splash is massive in making a second shot hit. Unless we’re talking 10+ pound braked guns- no one shoots a boomer as well as they shoot a powder puff, and since the smaller guns do create enough tissue damage.... they’re easy to kill with.

Sweet!!! So to some degree we agree!! We agree that the bigger bullets create bigger holes bringing more damage and trauma. We also agree that it doesn't matter how big the caliber is if you can't hit where you want!! I tend to forget that not everyone hunts the same as we do, my bad. Anything "30" or bigger we have in a chassis with either a brake or a can. We always have a spotter set up filming the shots in case there's any question about what happened. So I see from your point of view when you have people flinging lead out of a light rifle that kicks like a mule so they never shoot it that it will not kill as good as a mild rifle they shoot all the time.

 

[SneakyThunderCat]

I used the 143 edlx last year on whitetails in Idaho and I can't really argue the final result I did not like the performance of the bullet. First deer at 120 yards was a pass through. Pencil entrance with 1" exit, dead within 75 yards. Second deer was 403 yards high shoulder dropped right there however the entrance was a pencil hole no exit with about 42 grains of jacket found inside. Again not arguing with final result but not what I expected for expansion and weight retention. I switched to the 142 LRAB in winchester ammo and totally different results. First deer at 530 yards broke both shoulders with a pass through dead in 20 yards. Second deer at 350 yards pass through dead in 40 yards. Entrance was about an inch on both and exits were 2-3 inches on both. Hope that helps!!

Thank you for your feedback.


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[Jardo]

I’ll play and add my 2 cents.

A 6.5 creedmore would never be my first choice with any bullet design for long range mature elk. LR Accubonds have not been well received. I would stick with the regular ABs, eldx or Bergers.

If shooting a mature elk at 800 yards is the task, the 7mm would be my starting point but I would be more confident with my 300.

This is just opinion fellas... don’t get upset because I may disagree. Afterall, I’m just some random dude on an Internet forum, not your dad.


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