Advice on setup for a rookie....

[arock]

Not quite the same. You can't short press 300#s and live thru it. You can easily get the "70@28" bow and draw it as far as you can to exercise your drawing muscles... to perhaps the 50-55# draw length. That is a very quick, easy, safe and efficient way to reach your goal of properly shooting a heavier bow.

How ironic.....I am suggesting the best way to do it because I have done it. I gave my experience on how to be able to safely and very affectively shoot a heavy trad bow..... with 30 years later of more strength and healthier shoulders to boot.

Since you guys have your bow weight increase method down pat, tell us all how you guys have moved up from 25-30#s to your 70-75# trad bows. Tell us about your actual experience of how you moved up in bow weight to that heavy injury causing bow you warn about because surely you have or you wouldn't be telling us how. We'll wait.

The weight is arbitrary. If you can't physically move whatever weight without proper form and regardless of the movement it probably isn't the best idea to do so.

Don't shoot 70. Don't have much of a desire to. Started at 25, then 40 and then settled in at 50 which I think meets just about all of the requirements in NA.

If I'm going to pick up a bow, it is going to be with the intention to execute a good shot which is more accessible working with a comfortable draw weight as opposed to being over bowed.

 

[Btaylor]

Maybe I am not following Sap clearly but I dont think he is saying start shooting 65-70 right out of the gate, he said draw what you can draw with that bow until you have built up the strength to fully draw and control it. He didnt seem to mention shooting up to this point or I missed it. Conversely the other approach is to start lighter and get to shooting and developing form quickly. If I am correct to this point, the only caveat I would add to Sap's point is the person should at minimum be shown how to properly draw the bow so they are building strength in the proper muscles as they build up to full drawing whatever weight.

All that said, I dont think it is always a good thing to short step the learning curve for everyone building some bad habits that have to be fixed builds character.

 

[Foggy Mountain]

That is exactly the problem on infinite number of levels. So then compromise and delusion sets in. And here we are....grown men hunting with 35# bows because they can shoot with ease all day at 3D shoot and they believe the myth that they may shatter their rotator cuff if they draw a bow that reminds them they actually do have at least a little muscle left. Muscle tissue and strength never is constant. It is always increasing or decreasing based on resistance and then diet.

I have certainly never been a power lifter but at a measely 5'11 205 college athlete, I am very familiar with physical health, nutrition and strength. I am convinced that the reason a heavy 70+# bow is not too difficult for me to shoot and kill with is that I never stopped drawing the heavy weight. And I feel sure anyone else could be in the exact same situation if they did the same thing rather than be afraid of simple exercise and muscle resistance. But they are afraid discomfort and inconvenience so they justify their lighter bows and arrows.

You’re kinda proving my point, you were in peak physical condition when you started. You can’t expect everyone to be that way. You were an exception.
Let me put things another way, at what point do you think someone ought to just man up n struggle? Is it ok for a 70 year old? A 5 year girl girl? Of course not right, so when is it ok?
if the guy is 18 and frail? If he’s 25 and out of shape? Just give him a heavy bow and tell him to keep trying you’ll be back in a few years? Think about that. It’s absolutely the longest hardest way to get there. You’ll kill any enjoyment or desire. You’ll turn people off and away.
So if you were a college athlete you had a competitive fire. I called it meathead. No offense to you but we were always trying to out do each other physically, I’m sure you were same way. Do you see that in kids today? Wouldn’t it be easier to shoot a crossgun? It propels an arrow. It’s as legal lots places as that struggle styk you’re recommending, why not make life easy and go for ice cream afterwards? That’s the way most think. We need to encourage, help others along.
Did your gf or wife ever shoot? How bout your daughter if you have one? Did you follow this approach you’ve laid out and how did it go? If you didn’t how do you think it would commonly go? All things to consider. When I was a kid I would gravitate to tough things, I remember the very first day I benched 315. I mentioned to my buddy I’d get 400. He laughed said I was too small, that made me more determined. We’d play football, I don’t play football but helped my buddies practice semi pro team, hate running so played line. Some big meathead across from me made a face and huffed, sorta dismissed me when I lined up against him. My ears got hot and I wanted to eat his face, he paid that game, bet you were that way too, you had to be or you’d not be a college athlete, does the kid down the street have that mentality today? Do most of em?
We can’t go by what we did, how we felt, the world is softer brother.
I will agree the maintaining is because you never stopped it’s just the getting there I disagree with.

 

[Sapcut]

The weight is arbitrary. If you can't physically move whatever weight without proper form and regardless of the movement it probably isn't the best idea to do so.

Don't shoot 70. Don't have much of a desire to. Started at 25, then 40 and then settled in at 50 which I think meets just about all of the requirements in NA.

If I'm going to pick up a bow, it is going to be with the intention to execute a good shot which is more accessible working with a comfortable draw weight as opposed to being over bowed.

I respect your persoal preferences there but I am not nor have I said or implied picking up a heavier and good bit heavier bow than one can shoot and expect one to shoot it with good form. I have said the exact opposite. If the heavier bow IS one's objective like I have said several times, the heavier bow is basically a piece of exercise equipment with many different draw length and weight options before it ever becomes a weapon.

Let me put things another way, at what point do you think someone ought to just man up n struggle? Is it ok for a 70 year old?

If a 70 year old has little strength to begin with then that particular very low testosterone individual will probably have other limiting factors decreasing his ability to get the needed muscle tissue and strength. If said 70 year old never stopped resistance training then his chances of maintaining strength to draw and shoot a "heavy" bow are much better. Barring some unrelated issue, I personally fully expect to shoot 70#s at 70 years old simply due to beginning, continuing and eating wild protein and fat. But this isn't about me.

if the guy is 18 and frail? If he’s 25 and out of shape? Just give him a heavy bow and tell him to keep trying you’ll be back in a few years? Think about that. It’s absolutely the longest hardest way to get there. You’ll kill any enjoyment or desire. You’ll turn people off and away.

18 and frail and 25 out of shape.....with desire to shoot a heavy bow.....may take them longer but all it takes is exercise. Why on earth is that such a foreign idea? That would be one of the best things those two dudes could do for themselves. Walk in their room, get the 70# yard sale bow out of the corner, pull it back as far as they stinkin want to, hold it, let it go, repeat. In a week, they will pull it a couple more inches than the week before. If they don't want to do that then they can be frail and out of shape. Can't have both.

So if you were a college athlete you had a competitive fire. I called it meathead. No offense to you but we were always trying to out do each other physically, I’m sure you were same way.

No doubt about it til this day. Back then the competition was baseball and punting..... but NOONE, (almost), was shooting trad back then to compete with in nearly any way.

And Meathead is not me....its the broadhead I use and actually named for Tuffhead.

Do you see that in kids today? Wouldn’t it be easier to shoot a crossgun? It propels an arrow. It’s as legal lots places as that struggle styk you’re recommending, why not make life easy and go for ice cream afterwards? That’s the way most think. We need to encourage, help others along.

No for the most part and I agree most think that way, unfortunately. I am all about encouraging others to do things the right way which can certainly include not avoiding a little struggling and suffering. Its worth it. Suffering is underrated. Ask Jesus.

does the kid down the street have that mentality today? Do most of em?
We can’t go by what we did, how we felt, the world is softer brother.

No most don't and that's their problem they don't even know they have.

A little off the bow weight subject but your last statement is the stinkin problem and is becoming a cop out more than it should. People, kids whomever is soft is soft because nothing difficult was ever expected of them. Our kids WILL, most of the time, rise the standards and expectations we as parents and parents AS teachers expect of them. Those high quality characteristics, ethics, morals, ambitions, etc. come out of young folk in many many ways for the good of our culture IF we expect it out of them. It never comes out if the expectations are low. That is the real epidemic. Low is easy and a wide road. Narrow is a win win.

 

[Sapcut]

Maybe I am not following Sap clearly but I dont think he is saying start shooting 65-70 right out of the gate, he said draw what you can draw with that bow until you have built up the strength to fully draw and control it. He didnt seem to mention shooting up to this point or I missed it. Conversely the other approach is to start lighter and get to shooting and developing form quickly. If I am correct to this point, the only caveat I would add to Sap's point is the person should at minimum be shown how to properly draw the bow so they are building strength in the proper muscles as they build up to full drawing whatever weight.

Another simply way to explain.....

Ok....Your Dad left you a 1984 Black Widow recurve he used as thriving bowhunter. The bow was 68@30". You are a healthy 30 year old that is tired of the ease of shooting deer with a rifle. So you want to use your Dad's bow of which to hunt. You have a friend who has been trad bowhunting and you have recently pulled his 40# bow a couple of times. You know you can pull it to 28" but can't handle it well enough to have confidence to hunt with it. So you now have a idea of where you regarding bow drawing strength....but you really want to hunt proficiently with your Dad's 68#30 bow. Here's what you do..... and in a much shorter time period than you will ever realize without actually doing it (that is very true), you will be able to shoot that bow. I realize this is really complicated recipe for succes so stay with me here......

Walk in your study where your bowlike exercise equipment is that sits near your guns and gun killed deer mounts,
Pick it up, pull it back as far as you so desire creating muscle tension and resistance
Do that over and over
Do it the next time you walk into your study
Feel a little soreness on day two but keep pulling the bowlike exercise equipment
Notice you could only pull it about 21" on day one and now your at 25" a few days later (fully understanding that good form is totally irrelevant with bowlike exercise equipment)
Keep pulling and pulling and be wowed at how fast you are able to gain bow drawing muscle strength and
how far you can now draw the exercise equipment.
When you are now able to draw to whatever draw length you chose, go shoot what is now your bow.
Now you may want to learn the subjective thing called good shooting form from an experienced archery coach.
Be thankful you have more strength and able to shoot your Dad's bow regardless if it was too heavy for you.
Keep shooting and shooting to master your craft.

Building bombproof arrows to go with your Dad's exercise equipment is another conversation but you will need arrows.

 

[TradArcher]

Agree with starting with a heavier weight bow if that is what you feel you will need for the animals you will be hunting. 57yo female here - while I do have two 45# longbows one of my recurves is 54# and the other 62#...no problems shooting any of them accurately and I have killed deer/elk with my heavier recurve (black widow SAG). I have owned and shot heavier bows in the past and if I found what I wanted in the mid-60#s I'd pick another up.
27.5 draw length here.

If you want to pull heavier you need to feel how to draw a bow with your back muscles as well as you arms - kinda like the feeling of rowing a boat in a way. If you concentrate on that feeling and just go practice you will build yourself up to where bows past 45# are comfortable. It will take awhile for you to get beyond just hitting the hay bale anyways so build up your muscles while you figure out your shooting/aiming style.

Cable rowing machines at the gym can be very helpful for upping what you can comfortably pull btw.

50# or thereabouts might be a safer compromise for starting - you'll probably pull shorter than 28" so then pulling really 47#-ish or so or even less depending on your draw length. So then a 54# bow might get you back down to about 50# or thereabouts.

You will find after awhile of shooting that the grip/arrow shelf will make a huge difference in your consistency/accuracy...but you can only figure out what works best for you yourself by practicing a ton and learning. So don't be afraid to try different bows over time and definitely find yourself a local archers club/shop/gathering and go test shoot a few bows.

Best of good luck and welcome to the magic of archery!

 

[Beendare]

Delete

 

[TradArcher]

Well that draw length thing could be the issue - and he might not really find out his true draw length until he figures out his shooting style (think Asbell instinctive versus the polar opposite - olympic stand straight up with your longest possible draw length).

I don't agree that shooting a heavy bow *always* causes people issues - that's too broad a statement. It all depends on the persons body. I shot much heavier when I was younger but still shoot what some people would consider heavy now with comfort. My gym comment was for people wondering how to step up - I no longer spend any time in a gym (just out in the mountains enjoying them).

We can agree to disagree.

 

[Sapcut]

Ask yourself; How many guys over 60 still shoot heavy bows? I know hundreds of bowhunters....none do.

Very few over OR under 60 shoot heavy bows. I say its because they do not want to. They do not want to continue the semi difficult physical exercise required to shoot the heavier bow. Not because it is impossible and greatly increases injury. That is a myth. NOT exercising with decent reistance allows for injuries. They, like so many others want things easy. Not at all suggesting that it is the WRONG decision to not shoot a heavy bow. Just saying easy is the new kool factor.

Nice arrowing of the 800# moose. You are correct that 47#s is all that is needed, actually about 30#s more than needed with a perfect shot. But since you mentioned it, 47 is all that is needed until the arrow stops and doesn't penetrate. Then what? Would you think....Dadgumit, I left 23#s of draw weight on the table I told those guys I could've pulled. And with that extra 23#s I could've increased my arrow weight a couple hundred grains or so. It obviously only makes perfect sense my arrow would've had a much better chance of penetrating that scapula.

 

[Poeschel]

I’d only add to this that if you start off with too much weight, tuning an arrow might be a bitch. You won’t know for awhile if it’s the arrow or you that’s messed up.

 

[Foggy Mountain]

Sap to me exercise isn’t a big deal, in fact just a part of life everyday still and to be honest I don’t know why everyone else feels that way but they do

 

[Wrench]

As a guy who shot a #70 longbow for years, and now has a shelf full of 50-55# bows at 47yo.....I don't miss it a bit. I picked up a bit of draw length and being able to hold at full draw on an animal for as long as i need is a worthy trade. Draw length affects arrow speed more than most give it credit. A couple of inches more on a #50 will often pass a #70.

 

[Sapcut]

Sap to me exercise isn’t a big deal, in fact just a part of life everyday still and to be honest I don’t know why everyone else feels that way but they do

I think that exercise and low body weight per our frame are key factors in life longevity in general. And what we expect to accomplish in that longer life.

 

[Sapcut]

Draw length affects arrow speed more than most give it credit. A couple of inches more on a #50 will often pass a #70.

I agree. That is why I decided to maximize my draw to 31.5”. One great benefit for me to maximize my bow weight is that I can send a much heavier arrow at good speed into an animal. When killing and recovering is the goal with a trad bow, (not targetry), I think it is always better to increase your arrow speed by increasing propelling force versus decreasing arrow weight.

 

[Foggy Mountain]

I think that exercise and low body weight per our frame are key factors in life longevity in general. And what we expect to accomplish in that longer life.

We finally agree brother!!

 

[Rob5589]

We finally agree brother!!

 

[Beendare]

Very few over OR under 60 shoot heavy bows. I say its because they do not want to. They do not want to continue the semi difficult physical exercise required to shoot the heavier bow. Not because it is impossible and greatly increases injury. That is a myth. NOT exercising with decent reistance allows for injuries.

First l

.

 

[Wrench]