Anyone get a bad batch of Blackhorn 209 powder

[robAK]

Need help. Took my muzzy out to reaffirm drop at various yardages. In the past it had been very accurate out to 200 yds. The only time I had problems was when I left the funnel that snaps on top of the bottle at put the cap on. Was all over the place, so I got another bottle and it solved the problem figuring it got moisture.

Well it’s doing the same thing again even tho I got two new bottles in Billings. I’ve done nothing different and thoroughly clean after every session.

My question is has anyone had problems with new powder? Is there anything I can do to correct this?
My batch is 06071831. I assume thats June 7 2018. Is that too old?

 

[ENCORE]

There can be a difference in the propellant velocity just between lot numbers. IIRC...…….. they (Western) found a method to make it more consistent starting with lot #31. It appears your new bottle is #31.














331

 

[OXN939]

My question is has anyone had problems with new powder? Is there anything I can do to correct this?
My batch is 06071831. I assume thats June 7 2018. Is that too old?

Not new BH209, but if you find the thread from last year, you'll see a bunch of guys talking about its inconsistency. I had a bottle that would ignite about 70% of the time as it should. The other 30% would be either squib loads going less than 500 FPS, or fail to ignite at all. This is without any variables being changed- using clean and correct breech plugs, the right primers, consistent and correct loading procedures etc.

I actually sent a video of the malfunctions to Western Powders, and they told me to make sure my breech plug was clean and then stopped responding. Minus one customer of theirs here. Been shooting 777 since with excellent performance.

 

[robAK]

Thanks oxn939. I’m shooting thor 250 gr with 100 gr of BH 209. How much of 777 do you suggest if I go that way.

 

[ENCORE]

Thanks oxn939. I’m shooting thor 250 gr with 100 gr of BH 209. How much of 777 do you suggest if I go that way.

From years of experience and having shot BH209 since it became available, I've never, not a single time, had a failure to fire, hang fire or any other ignition issue. I've shot thousands of rounds using BH.
Inconsistencies can be hard, at times, to determine exactly what is creating the issue/s. MOST times it is determined that the shooter did something different or, that it was being used in a rifle not designed for it.
As I mentioned in the other post, there can be the slightest change in velocity between lots. However the change between lots wouldn't be that noticeable shooting 100yds. Now beyond 200yds, yes the velocity is going to make a difference in your POI.
I would HIGHLY suggest that if you plan to continue shooting the Thor bullets, that you should incorporate either a veggie or wool wad.
Good luck.

 

[robAK]

Update: bought a scale and kept bullets from 249.3 gr. and lower, that’s what I did in AK, and it shot like a champ.
That was the problem:really tight bullets seating.
That eliminated the wobble and inconsistency. It’s shooting like it had before.
Seems I’m closer to a .500 than a .501 with Thors Thanks guys

 

[Idaholewis]

Not new BH209, but if you find the thread from last year, you'll see a bunch of guys talking about its inconsistency. I had a bottle that would ignite about 70% of the time as it should. The other 30% would be either squib loads going less than 500 FPS, or fail to ignite at all. This is without any variables being changed- using clean and correct breech plugs, the right primers, consistent and correct loading procedures etc.

I actually sent a video of the malfunctions to Western Powders, and they told me to make sure my breech plug was clean and then stopped responding. Minus one customer of theirs here. Been shooting 777 since with excellent performance.

Yea, I’m not a Fan of BH209 either, Maybe as a Roadside Flare I had a Hangfire with a Lighter BUT, This was it’s LAST Hangfire with me

I sent Bullets to a Guy in Tennessee to test in his Knight Mountaineer, These Bullets fit GOOD N TIGHT in his Bore, To the Point that he Felt they were to tight Going down, So he ordered a 160 Dollar Swinglock Sizing die to Reduce them a Bit more. He was using Wool Felt Over Powder Wads, He experienced the EXACT Same thing as you Describe, He had Failure to ignite on Some, Hardly any Felt Recoil on others? And some that Went off perfectly.

There is NO WAY I would trust this Powder on a Hunt of mine. I put to much work in my Hunts, Especially Elk, to Pull the Trigger and Have NOTHING happen, or a Bullet Slide out the Barrel and tumble across the Ground in Front of me

 

[Idaholewis]

Not new BH209, but if you find the thread from last year, you'll see a bunch of guys talking about its inconsistency. I had a bottle that would ignite about 70% of the time as it should. The other 30% would be either squib loads going less than 500 FPS, or fail to ignite at all. This is without any variables being changed- using clean and correct breech plugs, the right primers, consistent and correct loading procedures etc.

I actually sent a video of the malfunctions to Western Powders, and they told me to make sure my breech plug was clean and then stopped responding. Minus one customer of theirs here. Been shooting 777 since with excellent performance.

Western Powders Also claims that “Bore Riding” bullets (Loose fitting) are Not Accurate? As i said in another thread on this Subject, They Should Contact Dave Gullo (Our NEW Current World Champion) And Lee Shavers (2 time World Champion) And let both of them Know that they have been Loading Wrong all of their Careers AMAZING that a Powder Co. could be that Dumb? At least they could Fact Check Before Making Such claims. Another reason I would have NOTHING to do with Western Powders, They Don’t Know what they are Talking about

My Email To Western Powders, i Obviously already Knew the Answer to this Question, i just wanted their Response

And Their Response to me. They don’t have a Clue what they are Talking about

Both 2 Time WORLD Champions Here (Dave Gullo Left, Lee Shaver’s Right) Both of these Guy’s taught me how to load my Target/Bench Bullets, Their Words to me “The Bullet should just Kiss the Rifling on the Way Down” Both of these Guy’s Compete to 1,000 Yards With Bullets that load like this in Muzzleloader, Yet Western Powders Claims that a Loose fitting bullet isn’t accurate? Again, AMAZING that a Co. would say such NONSENSE without Knowing what they are talking about? It wouldn’t surprise me if they Say this Because THEIR BH209 ABSOLUTELY Requires Compression to ignite

These 2 fellas have likely forgotten more than the Entire Western Powder Co will ever know

 

[OXN939]

Yea, I’m not a Fan of BH209 either, Maybe as a Roadside Flare I had a Hangfire with a Lighter BUT, This was it’s LAST Hangfire with me

I sent Bullets to a Guy in Tennessee to test in his Knight Mountaineer, These Bullets fit GOOD N TIGHT in his Bore, To the Point that he Felt they were to tight Going down, So he ordered a 160 Dollar Swinglock Sizing die to Reduce them a Bit more. He was using Wool Felt Over Powder Wads, He experienced the EXACT Same thing as you Describe, He had Failure to ignite on Some, Hardly any Felt Recoil on others? And some that Went off perfectly.

There is NO WAY I would trust this Powder on a Hunt of mine. I put to much work in my Hunts, Especially Elk, to Pull the Trigger and Have NOTHING happen, or a Bullet Slide out the Barrel and tumble across the Ground in Front of me

Haha that is awesome. Well played, sir

 

[OXN939]

Thanks oxn939. I’m shooting thor 250 gr with 100 gr of BH 209. How much of 777 do you suggest if I go that way.

90 grains by volume of 777 does well for my purposes in VA, where my max distance will be probably 150 yards. The only problems I've heard are with guys trying to get super hot loads going over 120 grains of powder.

 

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90 grains by volume of 777 does well for my purposes in VA, where my max distance will be probably 150 yards. The only problems I've heard are with guys trying to get super hot loads going over 120 grains of powder.

Never, not a single time, ever, have I had BH209 not ignite in a properly designed rifle with the proper designed breech plug. Without question, I've shot many thousands of rounds of BH209 without ANY type of failure. I buy BH209 in 5# containers and go through it quickly.

Now, for the guys using "super hot loads", I've been doing that for almost a year now, with INSTANT and CONSISTENT ignition and velocity. I'm using the Gen2 breech plug system with modules and a Federal 215M Match primer. Others shooting heavier charges than I'm shooting, are using 209 primers without ANY ignition problems.

Now...……. what we do know...…… Idaholewis already admitted he did not do the things that Western recommended. There's a whole list of posts explaining that and his dislike for BH209. He makes sure that everyone knows, no matter what forum he's on. And that's totally ok for HIM and his style of shooting. He likes black, it works perfectly for him and he shoots it well. He's far from being the only one who prefers black over anything else too.
Some will say pellets won't shoot LOL......… I shot Triple 7 pellets (magnum) for 5 years straight out of a .50cal rifle and it worked and ignited perfectly and was ACCURATE at long range. So those that say pellets won't work and are inconsistent are also wrong.

If the rifle and breech plug is designed to use BH209, the proper fitting bullet or sabot/bullet combination is used, the bullet seated tightly against the propellant and a magnum 209 primer, the rifle WILL go off properly. The only way it may not, is either shooter error, or the shooter has in some way contaminated the propellant.
There has actually been at least one shooter that I know of (not know personally), that actually dumped BH209 in a glass of water, let it soak, then removed it and let it air dry on paper towel. Guess what? It ignited after complete drying.

Do it right and it works.

 

[Idaholewis]

Never, not a single time, ever, have I had BH209 not ignite in a properly designed rifle with the proper designed breech plug. Without question, I've shot many thousands of rounds of BH209 without ANY type of failure. I buy BH209 in 5# containers and go through it quickly.

Now, for the guys using "super hot loads", I've been doing that for almost a year now, with INSTANT and CONSISTENT ignition and velocity. I'm using the Gen2 breech plug system with modules and a Federal 215M Match primer. Others shooting heavier charges than I'm shooting, are using 209 primers without ANY ignition problems.

Now...……. what we do know...…… Idaholewis already admitted he did not do the things that Western recommended. There's a whole list of posts explaining that and his dislike for BH209. He makes sure that everyone knows, no matter what forum he's on. And that's totally ok for HIM and his style of shooting. He likes black, it works perfectly for him and he shoots it well. He's far from being the only one who prefers black over anything else too.
Some will say pellets won't shoot LOL......… I shot Triple 7 pellets (magnum) for 5 years straight out of a .50cal rifle and it worked and ignited perfectly and was ACCURATE at long range. So those that say pellets won't work and are inconsistent are also wrong.

If the rifle and breech plug is designed to use BH209, the proper fitting bullet or sabot/bullet combination is used, the bullet seated tightly against the propellant and a magnum 209 primer, the rifle WILL go off properly. The only way it may not, is either shooter error, or the shooter has in some way contaminated the propellant.
There has actually been at least one shooter that I know of (not know personally), that actually dumped BH209 in a glass of water, let it soak, then removed it and let it air dry on paper towel. Guess what? It ignited after complete drying.

Do it right and it works.

I agree with you for the most part. But i say that BH209 is FINICKY powder. That is Comparing it to Real Blackpowder (Poor comparison, But that is the Powder i shoot and have Lots of Experience with, therefore why i compare) And my experience with Triple Seven, I really liked Triple Seven the Little bit i have Shot it. BH209 has Specific requirements that must be met in hopes that it will go off Reliably.

The man i helped in Tennessee with his Knight Mountaineer (Dustin G) had the EXACT same problems as OXN939 above, and that was with my Really TIGHT fitting Bullets, and Oversize Wool Felt Wads (.50 Cal Wads in a .450 Bore) I talked him in to Shooting Oversize Wool Felt as I’ve had such Great luck with it. When i sent him my Bullets they loaded to TIGHT, So tight that he had a hard time loading them on the Range, Dustin didn’t feel comfortable trying to load them on a Hunt with the Gun Rod, Yet he STIL had Ignition problems? He had a few Complete Fail to Fires, a few that Barely had any Felt Recoil? Bullet didn’t even make it to the Target iirc? And Some that went off without a Hitch? They were all over the Board. He ended up Ditching the Wool Felt and going with a TIGHT fitting Vege Fibre Wad, The last i talked to him, His problems had went away after he Went to the Tight fitting Vege Fibre Wads (Pretty much identical to my Situation) This tells me that BH209 is Finicky Stuff. The Escape there was here with Dustin, was Through the Wool Felt Wad of Course, and the Bores Grooves, Even as Little as that is, It was Enough to Cause the Problems, Even Though the Bullet was VERY TIGHT

I know you said that Doug S uses Wool Felt with Good Luck, I don’t doubt Doug a Bit, BUT his Bullet must be creating a Lot Tighter seal than my Bullets were in Dustin’s Bore, Cuz Dustin had GENUINE problems with Wool Felt OP Wads.

I know BH209 works, i have never said that it doesn’t, But i feel that it is import for folks to Know just how Finicky this Stuff CAN be if they Deviate ANY. This is why i Comment on it when i see a thread like this. But i have never Started a BH209 Thread, at least that i can remember? I’ve Just spoke my hands on experience with it, and my Humble opinion of it, But only when Someone asks a question about it. I post on MLIA BB more than anywhere else by Far, and haven’t said a word about BH

With BH209, My advice is to Avoid Wool Felt Over Powder Wads. Use a VERY TIGHT Over Powder Wad such as .060 Vegetable Fibre, or .060 LDPE (Low Density Poly) And Obviously a Tight fitting Bullet.

 

[Idaholewis]

I predict There will be LOTS more of these types of BH209 Threads in the near Future, as long as more affordable BH209 Compatible Rifles become available, Folks will surely have to try BH209 since it is Touted by some as the best thing since Sliced bread n Butter. And almost EVERYONE wants a Less Corrosive Alternative Powder these Days, that requires No Swabbing Between Shots. Real Blackpowder is to much work for a LARGE Majority, Even Though it gives the Most Reliable ignition available.

Fact is, Not everyone Shoots ML like some of us do, A large majority of Folks, especially in these Western States (Elk Country) Buy a Muzzleloader so they can Hunt Elk in a Special Season (if one exists?) plenty of them Care NOTHING about the Care, and understanding of the Rifle. If a Guy Enjoys these Forums, all you can do is educate as these Types of threads Pop up, Cuz inevitably they are going to!

 

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Something,,,,,,,,,, what ever that something may have been, created your friends problems, but its highly unlikely it was related to only the propellant. BH209 will shoot with wool, veggie, or just plain bore riding, properly sized bullets without a wad. Now granted, most find that it shoots better (more accurate) with a wad, either wool or veggie.

I know exactly how Doug, Bob and Jeff load bullets, which is the exact way I load them myself, plus, I've shot with them at the range. All the "proper" ignition systems used in a Knight rifle, Encore, CVA Accura V2 etc. rifles (w/BH209 breech plug), and customs, WILL ignite BH reliably and consistently, and with a bullet that is loaded with anywhere from 10 to 20# force, some with and some without a wad. Competition results prove that. Doug prefers wool, Jeff prefers veggie. I'm not sure exactly what Bob is now shooting other than his new custom, but my suspicion is its still heavy lead and no wad at all. All those guys mentioned are top competitors and HUNTERS.

Something, which at this point can only be guessed or imagined, was not done right, or the propellant was contaminated by the shooter. BH209 is FAR from a hard propellant to use, its just different from black. Black is an explosive, where as BH is a progressive burning propellant.
You put BH down the bore of ANY rifle which is designed to ignite it, use the proper primer and enough force with the bullet on the propellant, it will go off. Tens of thousands of modern inline shooters use BH with absolutely zero issues. It is working its way to being the most popular muzzleloader propellant used by modern inline shooters (with rifles capable of igniting it). Those who may be having issues, are either not following directions or have the wrong ignition system to properly ignite it, or have somehow contaminated their propellant.

 

[OXN939]

Never, not a single time, ever, have I had BH209 not ignite in a properly designed rifle with the proper designed breech plug. Without question, I've shot many thousands of rounds of BH209 without ANY type of failure. I buy BH209 in 5# containers and go through it quickly.

Now, for the guys using "super hot loads", I've been doing that for almost a year now, with INSTANT and CONSISTENT ignition and velocity. I'm using the Gen2 breech plug system with modules and a Federal 215M Match primer. Others shooting heavier charges than I'm shooting, are using 209 primers without ANY ignition problems.

Now...……. what we do know...…… Idaholewis already admitted he did not do the things that Western recommended. There's a whole list of posts explaining that and his dislike for BH209. He makes sure that everyone knows, no matter what forum he's on. And that's totally ok for HIM and his style of shooting. He likes black, it works perfectly for him and he shoots it well. He's far from being the only one who prefers black over anything else too.
Some will say pellets won't shoot LOL......… I shot Triple 7 pellets (magnum) for 5 years straight out of a .50cal rifle and it worked and ignited perfectly and was ACCURATE at long range. So those that say pellets won't work and are inconsistent are also wrong.

If the rifle and breech plug is designed to use BH209, the proper fitting bullet or sabot/bullet combination is used, the bullet seated tightly against the propellant and a magnum 209 primer, the rifle WILL go off properly. The only way it may not, is either shooter error, or the shooter has in some way contaminated the propellant.
There has actually been at least one shooter that I know of (not know personally), that actually dumped BH209 in a glass of water, let it soak, then removed it and let it air dry on paper towel. Guess what? It ignited after complete drying.

Do it right and it works.

First time I've seen someone with such a strong emotional connection to a blackpowder propellant...

 

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First time I've seen someone with such a strong emotional connection to a blackpowder propellant...

Its no different than someone who is a dedicated black powder shooter. Now I will agree with Idaholewis partially, And that agreement is that it does take a dedicated ignition system to ignite it properly, where with black you can get it to ignite in a toilet paper tube. Both have their place.

However, lets take a look at what propellant is doing what. Since BH209 entered competition, and believe me, everything possible was done to keep it out, its won every major competition for modern inline rifles. Black just can't compete with it. Now some may say they could care less about competitions and that's ok but...…. just because its shot in competition surely doesn't mean that its no used for hunting. Ten's of thousands of hunters are using BH209 with outstanding results. And..... that's all over the country, including out west.

So, if its posted that someone is having a problem with BH, then the reason why needs to be determined by the process of elimination. First rule is, is the shooter following the CLEAR directions provided by Western.

 

[OXN939]

First rule is, is the shooter following the CLEAR directions provided by Western.

Which I did, and it failed. A bunch. Interestingly, people other than you are entitled to share their experiences as well. And what's up with how you freak out and write page-long diatribes any time someone shares a negative experience with this stuff? Almost like you have some kind of interest in shutting down negative opinions of it...

 

[ENCORE]

Which I did, and it failed. A bunch. Interestingly, people other than you are entitled to share their experiences as well. And what's up with how you freak out and write page-long diatribes any time someone shares a negative experience with this stuff? Almost like you have some kind of interest in shutting down negative opinions of it...

When the negative opinions of it are expressed and when its CLEARLY admitted the directions/instructions weren't followed, other shooters need that reminder. Sorry it bothers you holy black guys.

 

[Idaholewis]

When the negative opinions of it are expressed and when its CLEARLY admitted the directions/instructions weren't followed, other shooters need that reminder. Sorry it bothers you holy black guys.

In all honesty, It doesn’t bother me at all, to me BH209 is no better than a Can of Monkey It is WORTHLESS, at least for my application.

I am Shooting Swiss Real Black over 800 Yards, They compete with it to 1,000-1,200 Yards, It goes off EVERYTIME without a Hitch, It Wins WORLD Championship Shoots. I couldn’t be happier than i am with Swiss Real Blackpowder

The guy i helped in Tennessee (Dustin) He followed the Directions and BH209 Failed MISERABLY for him, Complete Fail to fires? A few that Started, But Barely recoiled? So it will actually Light, But Stop??? And some that Went off without a Hitch, VERY UNRELIABLE Crap! But if BH209 works for you, And you like it, That’s ALL that Matters! Be Happy with it!

Again, Mark my word, There will be MORE N MORE of these Threads pop up in the Near Future, as more Affordable BH209 Compatible Guns become available

 

[ENCORE]

Those World Championship shoots you're mentioning, are ONLY for black powder shooters and traditional rifles or, BPRC's. There is no such thing for modern inline rifles, short of the NRA Championship shoot, which by the way is only a week or so away.
Mark my words...……… black won't hold a candle to the BH shooters, who will end up NRA Champions again. Best and most consistently accurate propellant on the range.

As for ELR, there are guys out west that have been shooting BH209 to 1,000yds and well beyond for a number of years and, are very good at it. I'm told by one of them, that next year they are going to push it to a mile (1,760yds).

Next bottle someone gets that they CLAIM it was stored and handled properly, used in a firearm with a breech plug designed to shoot it, used the proper loading procedures and followed Western's directions and it won't fire properly, send that bottle to me.