They are attempting to force registration/ban an accessory they previously deemed kosher. You can wordsmith it all you want, it comes down to de facto legislation by an agency.
AR15 Arm Brace Comment Period By Jan 4 Act now
- Thread starter BRTreedogs
- Start date
But they'd never take anyone's guns, right?
whaack
WKR
Commenting now. The ATF can go pound sand. I don’t gun hunt, but firearms and the 2A isn’t about hunting. It’s about freedom and govt over reach.
Come and take them ATF.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Come and take them ATF.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Desk Jockey
WKR
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2015
- Messages
- 5,834
Getting away from the original post quite a bit but I can tell you from experience, if you are charged with a foot fault regarding weapons, it will get messy.
a shooting buddy got in a screaming match with a guy doing wheelies on a crotch rocket on his block and had all his guns confiscated by the sheriff Pending a judges review. No contact. No guns involved but he still had to turn over all his shit to the sheriff.
I lost a nice Sig 9mm to a snafu with the Port Authority police at JFK When I was going to New Orleans to do volunteer work after hurricane katrina. A fairly junior officer took exception to the handgun in my checked bag that had already passed TSA inspection and was in a locked case in my duffle bag and out of my possession. Long story, but I was arrested and on my way to a holding cell before the supervisor arrived And asked the younger cop WTF he was doing. By then, they cant un-arrest you so I was processed and released. It cost me $8k and four months to make it go away. Part of the agreement with the anti gun DA was to allow the gun to be destroyed and pay a $1000 in misdemeanor fines.
hell, on that same trip, I saw LEO taking guns and body armor from private citizens without so much as a hand receipt.
the whole don’t worry about the laws / Regs, they will never come for your guns thing baffles me.
a shooting buddy got in a screaming match with a guy doing wheelies on a crotch rocket on his block and had all his guns confiscated by the sheriff Pending a judges review. No contact. No guns involved but he still had to turn over all his shit to the sheriff.
I lost a nice Sig 9mm to a snafu with the Port Authority police at JFK When I was going to New Orleans to do volunteer work after hurricane katrina. A fairly junior officer took exception to the handgun in my checked bag that had already passed TSA inspection and was in a locked case in my duffle bag and out of my possession. Long story, but I was arrested and on my way to a holding cell before the supervisor arrived And asked the younger cop WTF he was doing. By then, they cant un-arrest you so I was processed and released. It cost me $8k and four months to make it go away. Part of the agreement with the anti gun DA was to allow the gun to be destroyed and pay a $1000 in misdemeanor fines.
hell, on that same trip, I saw LEO taking guns and body armor from private citizens without so much as a hand receipt.
the whole don’t worry about the laws / Regs, they will never come for your guns thing baffles me.
CorbLand
WKR
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2016
- Messages
- 6,698
So as long as you are provided a clear way to remain legal it should all be fine and dandy?
So, you are free to say whatever you want as long as we approve of what your saying.
Your free from warrantless searches, as long as you pay us when we show up to search your house.
You have the right to vote, but only if you own land.
I mean, even the King of England provided ways for his peasants to remain legal...
- Thread Starter
- #86
OP
BRTreedogs
WKR
Well I hope a few more people came out of this more educated and made there voices heard.
Weather we agree or not.
Weather we agree or not.
- Banned
- #87
I'm curious as to how many people read the guidance? It did not eliminate braces and it was clear that incidental shouldering of a brace was still legal. Rather it defined a method for differentiating a brace from a buttstock. It was the result of manufactures pushing the limits of credibility with braces that did not even function as a brace due to the angle of the bore when the "brace" was placed on the forearm making it impossible to aim.
While I personally think the SBR and suppressor portion of the NFA should be repealed, it is hard for me to see this guidance in the light that so many paint it. Personally, I would prefer clearly defined and published definitions I can fall back on to being at the mercy of an individual officer's interpretation, then having to escalate it to the interpretation of a judge.
While I personally think the SBR and suppressor portion of the NFA should be repealed, it is hard for me to see this guidance in the light that so many paint it. Personally, I would prefer clearly defined and published definitions I can fall back on to being at the mercy of an individual officer's interpretation, then having to escalate it to the interpretation of a judge.
I'm curious, did you actually read the guidance?
If you did, you would have realized they didn't give any specifications in their proposed "guidance" that was clearly definitive.
It was anything but clear and definitive...so depending upon how they felt that day, they could interpret it any way they wanted.
That is tyranny...
I concur the entire NFA should be done away with.
BUT, if they are going to issue "guidance", it needs to be clearly defined and not subject to interpretation. They need to give specific measurements along with their definitions.
Rest assured, there will be another attempt to regulate pistol braces (and AR-15s...and semi-auto weapons).
Edit: Link to good article on Ammoland:
Here They Come Again… President Trump Should Shut Down the ATF
Whatever BATFE’s motives for their current assaults on gun owners, President Trump should take immediate action to rein in the agency and shut down their attacks on our rights.
www.ammoland.com
Last edited:
You have accused me of lying by implying that I did not do something that I strongly implied I did. To be clear, before my first post I read every word of it up to section "C. Submitting Comments." You are free to disagree with my interpretation and I will take no offence, however, I do take offence at being called a liar or stupid (your first two sentences).I'm curious, did you actually read the guidance?
If you did, you would have realized they didn't give any specifications in their proposed "guidance" that was clearly definitive.
It was anything but clear and definitive...so depending upon how they felt that day, they could interpret it any way they wanted.
That is tyranny...
I concur the entire NFA should be done away with.
BUT, if they are going to issue "guidance", it needs to be clearly defined and not subject to interpretation. They need to give specific measurements along with their definitions.
Rest assured, there will be another attempt to regulate pistol braces (and AR-15s...and semi-auto weapons).
Edit: Link to good article on Ammoland:
Here They Come Again… President Trump Should Shut Down the ATF
Whatever BATFE’s motives for their current assaults on gun owners, President Trump should take immediate action to rein in the agency and shut down their attacks on our rights.
Did I use the word "clear" in the context of how they defined a brace? I reread my post and must be missing it. I stand by the fact that they where crystal clear that incidental shouldering of a brace did not make it a buttstock. I quote "This is far from the “incidental” use of an arm brace as a shouldering device as described in ATF's 2017 guidance (see footnote 8)."
Edit: In my second paragraph I did use the word "clear" in a context that could reasonably be interpreted as applying to the the guidance's definition of brace. So my tone for the above paragraph is miss placed. End Edit.
Would you prefer they define it as "anything with a LOP over 4 inches is a buttstock?" The guidance provided (it was withdrawn, hence the past tense) a list of factors that influence the decision and recognized that an individual items design would need to be evaluated in full rather than pinning it on a few superficial factors. To quote the defunct guidance "These factors are based on known stabilizing braces and similar attachments. No single factor or combination of factors is necessarily dispositive, and FATD examines each weapon holistically on a case-by-case basis. Because of changes in design or configuration of a weapon or Start Printed Page 82519attachment, as well as future changes in technology, this list is not exhaustive and other factors may become relevant to a weapon's classification."
Did you miss this section that stated "ATF recognizes that before issuance of this notice, there was a misunderstanding by some that a pistol assembled with any item purported to be a stabilizing brace still would be considered a “pistol” regardless of other characteristics. The objective factors discussed here make clear that while some stabilizing braces may lawfully be used on pistols without bringing the firearm within the purview of the NFA, that is not necessarily the case for every “pistol” because some firearms are configured or have characteristics such that they meet the statutory definition of “rifle or shotgun” (hereafter, “affected stabilizer-equipped firearms”). ATF understands that most individuals who acquired affected stabilizer-equipped firearms did so in good-faith reliance on representations, made by those selling the stabilizing braces or the firearms, that those firearms were not subject to the NFA.
"Consequently, following issuance of this notice, ATF and DOJ plan to implement a separate process by which current possessors of affected stabilizer-equipped firearms may choose to register such firearms to be compliant with the NFA. As part of that process, ATF plans to expedite processing of these applications, and ATF has been informed that the Attorney General plans retroactively to exempt such firearms from the collection of NFA taxes if they were made or acquired, prior to the publication of this notice, in good faith. This separate process may include the following options: registering the firearm in compliance with the NFA (described above), permanently removing the stabilizing brace from the firearm and disposing of it, replacing the barrel of the firearm (16” or greater for a rifle, or 18” or greater for a shotgun), surrendering the firearm to ATF, or destroying the firearm.Start Printed Page 82520
"Until that process is separately implemented, and absent a substantial public safety concern, ATF will exercise its enforcement discretion not to enforce the registration provisions of the NFA against any person who, before publication of this notice, in good faith acquired, transferred, made, manufactured, or possessed an affected stabilizer-equipped firearms." Emphases mine.
Life is rarely clearly defined, there is a reason we have judges and a long standing tradition of officers discretion in the US. There is also a reason case law plays an important part in our legal system, because laws cannot cover every eventuality. If recognition of the facts of life is "tyranny" well I guess I'm a tyrant as I try to understand the context in which my toddler acts rather than giving blanket punishments.
The Ammoland article you linked is borderline ridiculous in its clear attempt to misunderstand legal rule making and equates to click bate and it could be argued even intentional obscuration of what was actually stated.
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- Thread Starter
- #93
OP
BRTreedogs
WKR
My life is clearly defined.
Shall not be infringed.
I'm sure its a fantasy. But KISS for me till I die I may conform if something passes.
But I will never sit idle and let stuff pass.
Criminals do not care about the law.
More laws won't change that.
Shall not be infringed.
I'm sure its a fantasy. But KISS for me till I die I may conform if something passes.
But I will never sit idle and let stuff pass.
Criminals do not care about the law.
More laws won't change that.
OMG?
Really!
Unable to provide actual quotes from the guidance that support your position? LOL...
From the ATF website:
Carbine.A short-barrelled rifle whose barrel is generally not longer than 22 inches and is characterized by light weight.
Well, does that mean it is an "SBR" (short barreled rifle) as defined by NFA or just a rifle with a shorter than normal barrel?
-----
Pistol.A hand-operated firearm having a chamber integral with, or permanently aligned with, the bore.
Not a very clear definition. Subject to interpretation.
-----
Rifle.A shoulder firearm discharging bullets through a rifled barrel at least 16 inches in length, including combination and drilling guns.
Better, at least gives a length to measure. But lacking definition for the rest of the of the gun.
-----
Handgun.
a.Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
b.Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.
Another crappy definition. How long (or short) can the stock be? Subject to interpretation.
------
Short-barreled rifle.A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
Short-barreled shotgun.A shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length, and any weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
Well, at least something to be measured but doesn't say where the measurements begin, say from bolt face to tip of barrel?
---------
From the former proposed "guidance":
Type and Caliber. The type and caliber of firearm to which the stabilizing brace or similar item is installed. A large caliber firearm that is impractical to fire with one hand because of recoil or other factors, even with an arm brace, is likely to be considered a rifle or shotgun.
How about .22 mag? Is that too big?
---------
Weight and Length. The weight and length of the firearm used with the stabilizing brace. A firearm that is so heavy that it is impractical to fire or aim with one hand, or so long that it is difficult to balance the firearm to fire with one hand, is likely to be considered a rifle or shotgun.
Maybe 1 lb?...what do you think? Having a strong day or a weak day?
--------
Length of Pull. The “length of pull” refers to the distance from the trigger to the point at which a stock meets the shoulder. This is a measurement for rifles and shotguns used to accommodate shooters of different sizes. Because an arm brace need only reach the forearm, the distance between the trigger and the back of the brace is generally expected to be shorter than the distance between the trigger and the back of a stock on a weapon designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder. This measurement is not necessarily determinative of the intent of the manufacturer but is used in making an evaluation of the firearm. If a brace is of a length that makes it impractical to attach to the shooter's wrist or forearm, then that may demonstrate that it is not designed as brace but rather for shoulder fire.
Are we height challenged or very tall? Does it matter? Is he a douche bag or should we give him a break?
---------
The amount of rear contact surface area of the stabilizing brace that can be used in shouldering the weapon as compared to the surface area necessary for use as a stabilizing brace;
Should it be 5 sq in today...or since he is ugly, only 1 sq in?
Carbine.A short-barrelled rifle whose barrel is generally not longer than 22 inches and is characterized by light weight.
Well, does that mean it is an "SBR" (short barreled rifle) as defined by NFA or just a rifle with a shorter than normal barrel?
-----
Pistol.A hand-operated firearm having a chamber integral with, or permanently aligned with, the bore.
Not a very clear definition. Subject to interpretation.
-----
Rifle.A shoulder firearm discharging bullets through a rifled barrel at least 16 inches in length, including combination and drilling guns.
Better, at least gives a length to measure. But lacking definition for the rest of the of the gun.
-----
Handgun.
a.Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
b.Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.
Another crappy definition. How long (or short) can the stock be? Subject to interpretation.
------
Short-barreled rifle.A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
Short-barreled shotgun.A shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length, and any weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
Well, at least something to be measured but doesn't say where the measurements begin, say from bolt face to tip of barrel?
---------
From the former proposed "guidance":
Type and Caliber. The type and caliber of firearm to which the stabilizing brace or similar item is installed. A large caliber firearm that is impractical to fire with one hand because of recoil or other factors, even with an arm brace, is likely to be considered a rifle or shotgun.
How about .22 mag? Is that too big?
---------
Weight and Length. The weight and length of the firearm used with the stabilizing brace. A firearm that is so heavy that it is impractical to fire or aim with one hand, or so long that it is difficult to balance the firearm to fire with one hand, is likely to be considered a rifle or shotgun.
Maybe 1 lb?...what do you think? Having a strong day or a weak day?
--------
Length of Pull. The “length of pull” refers to the distance from the trigger to the point at which a stock meets the shoulder. This is a measurement for rifles and shotguns used to accommodate shooters of different sizes. Because an arm brace need only reach the forearm, the distance between the trigger and the back of the brace is generally expected to be shorter than the distance between the trigger and the back of a stock on a weapon designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder. This measurement is not necessarily determinative of the intent of the manufacturer but is used in making an evaluation of the firearm. If a brace is of a length that makes it impractical to attach to the shooter's wrist or forearm, then that may demonstrate that it is not designed as brace but rather for shoulder fire.
Are we height challenged or very tall? Does it matter? Is he a douche bag or should we give him a break?
---------
The amount of rear contact surface area of the stabilizing brace that can be used in shouldering the weapon as compared to the surface area necessary for use as a stabilizing brace;
Should it be 5 sq in today...or since he is ugly, only 1 sq in?
- Thread Starter
- #96
OP
BRTreedogs
WKR
The Commies are rite back at it.
Americans told you we didn't want it.
New comment period opens today.
Comments from the last proposal do not carry over.
www.atf.gov
Americans told you we didn't want it.
New comment period opens today.
Comments from the last proposal do not carry over.
Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached “Stabilizing Braces” | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
On January 13, 2023, the Attorney General signed ATF final rule 2021R-08F, “Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached ‘Stabilizing Braces,’” amending ATF’s regulations to clarify when a rifle is designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. The final rule was published in the...
- Thread Starter
- #97
OP
BRTreedogs
WKR
CorbLand
WKR
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2016
- Messages
- 6,698
If at first you don't succeed...The Commies are rite back at it.
Americans told you we didn't want it.
New comment period opens today.
Comments from the last proposal do not carry over.
Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached “Stabilizing Braces” | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
On January 13, 2023, the Attorney General signed ATF final rule 2021R-08F, “Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached ‘Stabilizing Braces,’” amending ATF’s regulations to clarify when a rifle is designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder. The final rule was published in the...
- Thread Starter
- #99
OP
BRTreedogs
WKR
Sounds like the tactic of wearing us down is working.
Significant less comments then last time so far.
Make your voice heard and pass it along.
Significant less comments then last time so far.
Make your voice heard and pass it along.
MTElkChaser
WKR
They are proposing a “point system” now.
More than 4 points and it’s an SBR …
Folding stock = 2 points
Vertical foregrip or handstop = 2 points
Red dot sight = 2 points
The list goes on …
More than 4 points and it’s an SBR …
Folding stock = 2 points
Vertical foregrip or handstop = 2 points
Red dot sight = 2 points
The list goes on …
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