Are Berger failures real?

[Broz]

I don't know what the deal has been with the 168 classic hunters out of my 7 mag this year! I shot or watched 5 sitka blacktails shot with them, one cow elk and one mule deer buck this year. All had very similar results. The bullets seemed to just zip right through everything leaving a good sized exit and every animal traveled a long distance and almost all took follow up shots. I can understand the elk as it was a low hit the first shot. But the damn sitka bucks were traveling 100+ yards and taking 2 shots a piece. My mule deer took the first shot quartering to at 250, went in behind the shoulder and exited out the hind quarter Leaving a huge exit, hunched up and limped 50 yards closer, I smoked him nearly face on with a slight angle through the shoulder on shot #2, and the third one was complete broadside when he finally tipped over.
Now I know there's all this debate on here about 7mm as a long range elk cartridge, but a 168 grain bullet going 2950 should crumple any deer with those angles. I think Im to try the VLD or ELDM next to see how a little more of an explosive round does.

Well I will get hate for this, but the truth is the truth. This is why there is not one single 7mm left in my safe. I have no explanation at all, they just don't kill like a 30, especially on elk. And those of you that know me know I have taken dozens of elk with each. It just does not make sense. I spent an entire day calling trusted friends in the industry with the question, "Why do we have to shoot elk more than once with the 7's with any bullet" when the 300 win does it faster with one shot? The common answer was " We can't explain it either, but we see the same thing."

And not to further upset the 7 fans, but personally I will add this. A 7mm with a 168 gr bullet, Barnes or Berger are the worst, slowest killing rifles I have ever owned.

FWIW, just one hunters opinion / experience shared by some others.

Jeff

 

[mt100gr.]

Interesting results Jon Boy. My one and only bang flop DRT with Berger's was with a 168 grain classic hunter - mule deer at 498 yards.

Rifle is a Tikka 7mag.

I switched to VLDS for a little better BC and a winter reloading project.

Last year I rolled my sheep with one at 614 yards. He pitched downhill and struggled some but death was quick. Maybe 20 yards from impact.

Also last year was a mule deer buck at 230 yards. He absorbed the hit on his feet and sprinted about 75 yards before crashing hard.

This year I shot my bull at 375 and he only took a few steps downhill before rolling.

My buddy used my rifle for his bull this year at 475 yards and it took a hard hit and made it about 20-25 yards.

None of the animals I shot with VLDs dropped in their tracks but none went to far. All were hit well and i am definitely satisfied with the results but like you're seeing with the CH bullets, I am seeing the VLDs punch out golf ball - lime sized exit wounds. I'm not complaining about that. The one buck I shot with the CH had the typical shrapnel wounds I would have expected.

These critters are incredibly tough and no 2 bullet impacts are the same. I will likely continue using the VLDs in my 7mm and the 215 hybrids in my 300 as I am very happy with the accuracy.

 

[mt100gr.]

Well I will get hate for this, but the truth is the truth. This is why there is not one single 7mm left in my safe. I have no explanation at all, they just don't kill like a 30, especially on elk. And those of you that know me know I have taken dozens of elk with each. It just does not make sense. I spent an entire day calling trusted friends in the industry with the question, "Why do we have to shoot elk more than once with the 7's with any bullet" when the 300 win does it faster with one shot? The common answer was " We can't explain it either, but we see the same thing."

And not to further upset the 7 fans, but personally I will add this. A 7mm with a 168 gr bullet, Barnes or Berger are the worst, slowest killing rifles I have ever owned.

FWIW, just one hunters opinion / experience shared by some others.

Jeff

This, for whatever reason, seems to hold IME. But I have so much confidence in hitting the mark with my 7 that it still goes hunting a lot. As I cut more weight from my other gear my RBros 300 will be taking over that role to some extent.

 

[Jon Boy]

Well I will get hate for this, but the truth is the truth. This is why there is not one single 7mm left in my safe. I have no explanation at all, they just don't kill like a 30, especially on elk. And those of you that know me know I have taken dozens of elk with each. It just does not make sense. I spent an entire day calling trusted friends in the industry with the question, "Why do we have to shoot elk more than once with the 7's with any bullet" when the 300 win does it faster with one shot? The common answer was " We can't explain it either, but we see the same thing."

And not to further upset the 7 fans, but personally I will add this. A 7mm with a 168 gr bullet, Barnes or Berger are the worst, slowest killing rifles I have ever owned.

FWIW, just one hunters opinion / experience shared by some others.

Jeff

Jeff,
I totally understand with elk, doesn't bother me a bit to put an insurance round into a bull when I have a mild recoiling light weight rifle. But Sitka blacktail bucks? Come on, ive dumped a number of Columbian blacktail with a 270. Just doesn't make sense, ill be trying a new round before switching calibers. I have no attachment to the 7 mag for what its worth

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

[Broz]

Jeff,
I totally understand with elk, doesn't bother me a bit to put an insurance round into a bull when I have a mild recoiling light weight rifle. But Sitka blacktail bucks? Come on, ive dumped a number of Columbian blacktail with a 270. Just doesn't make sense, ill be trying a new round before switching calibers. I have no attachment to the 7 mag for what its worth

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

Yeah I know man. I wish I had all the answers but I don't. This one blows me away. I shot a mule deer doe this year at 350 or 400 yards. Cant remember. Purposely waited for her to get perfect so I could enter the crease and take out vitals then exit far shoulder to drop her where she stood. Hit was perfect and she ran over the hill out of sight with far shoulder / leg flapping in the wind. I walked over and blood trail was like no other. I cut her slow looking at terminal damage. Top of heart and evey single artery was blown off the heart. Vital cavity full of blood. How the heck did she travel this far? The will to live I guess.

Jeff

 

[elkguide]

Well I will get hate for this, but the truth is the truth. This is why there is not one single 7mm left in my safe. I have no explanation at all, they just don't kill like a 30, especially on elk. And those of you that know me know I have taken dozens of elk with each. It just does not make sense. I spent an entire day calling trusted friends in the industry with the question, "Why do we have to shoot elk more than once with the 7's with any bullet" when the 300 win does it faster with one shot? The common answer was " We can't explain it either, but we see the same thing."

And not to further upset the 7 fans, but personally I will add this. A 7mm with a 168 gr bullet, Barnes or Berger are the worst, slowest killing rifles I have ever owned.

FWIW, just one hunters opinion / experience shared by some others.

Jeff

I wish that I could make some sense of the 7 Mag phenomenon but after 30 years of guiding and hunting I have experienced the same. I don't understand and I don't even like it as I love the .284 caliber. I will use a 7 Mag on whitetails and to punch holes in paper but that is as far as I will go.

 

[Matt Cashell]

I must be doing it wrong, Jeff. I’ve killed around 30 animals with a 7mm of some flavor with only a rare follow up shot. Only a moose and an elk this year though. Moose dropped in his tracks and the elk ran 15 yards.

The moose was a 140 TTSX from a 7-08 while the elk was a 160 AB from a 7RM.

I just post this as my (limited) experience, not doubting Jeff’s, and certainly not to throw shade on .300 mags, which I also like and own.

I hope to post soon about the efficacy of the little 7-08 on bison as well.

 

[elkguide]

My negative 7mm experiences have been with the 7 Mag. I have had great success with the 7-08. That is what is so hard for me to come up with any reasoned answer but I am only going on my personal experience.

 

[Broz]

I must be doing it wrong, Jeff..

Don't give up Matt, you'll get there.

Jeff

EDIT to Add: Now don't everyone take what I said as "7mm WILL NOT kill" That would be silly. We all know they will kill an elk. What I am saying is they are slow about it, and way slower than a 30. Many with the 7's require a second shot in my world. That is unless you care to watch them stand there or walk off. And the 168's in a 7 Rem Mag are the worst I have seen about it.

Jeff

 

[luke moffat]

Well I will get hate for this, but the truth is the truth. This is why there is not one single 7mm left in my safe. I have no explanation at all, they just don't kill like a 30, especially on elk. And those of you that know me know I have taken dozens of elk with each. It just does not make sense. I spent an entire day calling trusted friends in the industry with the question, "Why do we have to shoot elk more than once with the 7's with any bullet" when the 300 win does it faster with one shot? The common answer was " We can't explain it either, but we see the same thing."

And not to further upset the 7 fans, but personally I will add this. A 7mm with a 168 gr bullet, Barnes or Berger are the worst, slowest killing rifles I have ever owned.

FWIW, just one hunters opinion / experience shared by some others.

Jeff

IDK, ask Ryan about how well the Sitka deer hold up to 230s from a 300 RUM....they are hardy little punks. The 6.5 with ELDX def put them down faster. This is a sample size of 7 deer shot with the 300 RUM and 9 with the 6.5 so hardly enough to draw conclusions from.

May be that the little Sitka deer don't allow the bergers to full do their "work" inside them or something IDK.

Thus far happy with the ELDX and I have enough steps in my reloading as it is so I will pick the plastic tip to help expansion over having make sure each bullet tip is hollowed out with a drill bit.

Granted I am not shooting them that far out either so maybe thats why I have had better luck with ELD line over the Bergers in the past?

 

[JP100]

This was my first year using bergers. First elk shot didn’t go farther than 20 yards, but i never found the bullet. pencil sized entrance hole and a decent sized exit hole at 500 yards with a .308. Last week my cousin used my gun to shoot a decent sized bull. Took a few follow up shots, even after a good hit to the lungs. After finding a bullet while skinning i am less than impressed. I really have no idea how the bullet ended like this. No damage to the tip and started to mushroom on the back?

Bullets in the background are hornady eld-x taken from 2 different elk last year. I guess i am pretty skeptical now. I understand that the bergers are supposed to fragment and dump all the energy in the cavity, but it doesn’t appear that either elk killed had this. First one had an exit hole making me think it penciled and the second didn’t expand at all.


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There are few bullets that match that amazing performance. Ive got a stack of ELD X that look just the same.


Seirra matchking. stag died one shot even.

Ive seen a few critters been killed with the bergers and shot a few myself.

#1 a dead animal does not mean the bullet worked well
#2 a lost animals does not mean the bullet failed

There is a million variables, but I will not trust a berger as an all round bullet. maybe for 'long range' and then run a bonded bullet or a copper for close shots.

Tumbling on these bullets Id say were because of small hollow point on a raking shot?
The matchking was from a stag at 440 yards(ish) and was a quartering away shot, small fragment luckily went into lungs and he dies on the spot(slowly).

If your not confident taking a rear on shot or a hard quartering on or away angle you need a better bullet. You should be able to shoot at damn near any angle and have good reliable penetration and expansion. Animals dont stand round broad side waiting for ya.

 

[odin0226]

Bergers arent hollow points , they are an open tip match design. The open tip doesn't initiate expansion, and it isnt designed to perform like a hollow point.

I do agree with your comment on all around bullet that does everything- berger isnt it (frankly nothing is). Berger is IMEO the best long range bullet; when I'm hunting dark timber with expected shots inside of 200 yards I use a .338 WM , 225 TTSX barnes and break bones. If im in big country the 300 RUM with 215 berger is the go to for now.

I've used the 338 combo on mule deer, in all instances it took multiple shots to kill the animal due to over penetration. I think as sportsman we need to do our part to understand terminal performance with as much emphasis as we hold towards balitics. I'm guilty too.

 

[Chick]

Something to consider:

In iraq, 2006 timeframe a JAG officer ordered the removal of all "hollow point" projectiles snipers were using , in accordance with geneva convention/ LOAC.

These were the M118LR , 175 gn SMK in 308 Win. The SMK is "similar" to a berger in design.

Now before everyone smashs me, this isn't proof that the berger performs the same way because they are differnt projectiles. Below is what has been officially released in regards to the SMK Open Tip Match:

As previously described, the MatchKing is a boat tail, ogival spitzer tip bullet with open tip. The "open tip" is a shallow aperture (approximately the diameter of the wire in a standard size straight pin or paper clip) in the nose of the bullet. While sometimes described as a "hollow point," this is a mischaracterization in law of war terms. Generally a "hollow point" bullet is thought of in terms of its ability to expand on impact with soft tissue. Physical examination of the MatchKing "open tip" bullet reveals that its opening is extremely small in comparison to the aperture in comparable hollow point hunting bullets; for example, the 165-grain GameKing is a true hollow point boat tail bullet with an aperture substantially greater than the MatchKing, and skiving (serrations cut into the jacket) to insure expansion. In the MatchKing, the open tip is closed as much as possible to provide better aerodynamics, and contains no skiving. The lead core of the MatchKing bullet is entirely covered by the bullet jacket. While the GameKing bullet is designed to bring the ballistic advantages of a match bullet to long range hunting, the manufacturer expressly recommends against the use of the MatchKing for hunting game of any size because it does not have the expansion characteristics of a hunting bullet.

The purpose of the small, shallow aperture in the MatchKing is to provide a bullet design offering maximum accuracy at very long ranges, rolling the jacket of the bullet around its core from base to tip; standard military bullets and other match bullets roll the jacket around its core from tip to base, leaving an exposed lead core at its base.

The purpose of the 7.62mm "open-tip" MatchKing bullet is to provide maximum accuracy at very long range. Like most 5.56mm and 7.62mm military ball bullets, it may fragment upon striking its target, although the probability of its fragmentation is not as great as some military ball bullets currently in use by some nations. Bullet fragmentation is not a design characteristic, however, nor a purpose for use of the MatchKing by United State Army snipers. Wounds caused by MatchKing ammunition are similar to those caused by a fully jacketed military ball bullet, which is legal under the law of war, when compared at the same ranges and under the same conditions. The military necessity for its use-- its ability to offer maximum accuracy at very long ranges--is complemented by the high degree of discriminate fire it offers in the hands of a trained sniper. It not only meets, but exceeds, the law of war obligations of the United States for use in combat.

This opinion has been coordinated with the Department of State, Army General Counsel, and the Offices of the Judge Advocates General of the Navy and Air Force, who concur with its contents and conclusions.

 

[Chick]

Something to consider:

In iraq, 2006 timeframe a JAG officer ordered the removal of all "hollow point" projectiles snipers were using , in accordance with geneva convention/ LOAC.

These were the M118LR , 175 gn SMK in 308 Win. The SMK is "similar" to a berger in design.

Now before everyone smashs me, this isn't proof that the berger performs the same way because they are differnt projectiles. Below is what has been officially released in regards to the SMK Open Tip Match:

As previously described, the MatchKing is a boat tail, ogival spitzer tip bullet with open tip. The "open tip" is a shallow aperture (approximately the diameter of the wire in a standard size straight pin or paper clip) in the nose of the bullet. While sometimes described as a "hollow point," this is a mischaracterization in law of war terms. Generally a "hollow point" bullet is thought of in terms of its ability to expand on impact with soft tissue. Physical examination of the MatchKing "open tip" bullet reveals that its opening is extremely small in comparison to the aperture in comparable hollow point hunting bullets; for example, the 165-grain GameKing is a true hollow point boat tail bullet with an aperture substantially greater than the MatchKing, and skiving (serrations cut into the jacket) to insure expansion. In the MatchKing, the open tip is closed as much as possible to provide better aerodynamics, and contains no skiving. The lead core of the MatchKing bullet is entirely covered by the bullet jacket. While the GameKing bullet is designed to bring the ballistic advantages of a match bullet to long range hunting, the manufacturer expressly recommends against the use of the MatchKing for hunting game of any size because it does not have the expansion characteristics of a hunting bullet.

The purpose of the small, shallow aperture in the MatchKing is to provide a bullet design offering maximum accuracy at very long ranges, rolling the jacket of the bullet around its core from base to tip; standard military bullets and other match bullets roll the jacket around its core from tip to base, leaving an exposed lead core at its base.

The purpose of the 7.62mm "open-tip" MatchKing bullet is to provide maximum accuracy at very long range. Like most 5.56mm and 7.62mm military ball bullets, it may fragment upon striking its target, although the probability of its fragmentation is not as great as some military ball bullets currently in use by some nations. Bullet fragmentation is not a design characteristic, however, nor a purpose for use of the MatchKing by United State Army snipers. Wounds caused by MatchKing ammunition are similar to those caused by a fully jacketed military ball bullet, which is legal under the law of war, when compared at the same ranges and under the same conditions. The military necessity for its use-- its ability to offer maximum accuracy at very long ranges--is complemented by the high degree of discriminate fire it offers in the hands of a trained sniper. It not only meets, but exceeds, the law of war obligations of the United States for use in combat.

This opinion has been coordinated with the Department of State, Army General Counsel, and the Offices of the Judge Advocates General of the Navy and Air Force, who concur with its contents and conclusions.

Not wanting to argue with you about the "hollow point" SMK, but Sierra told me that the "hollow point is formed but a small punch, that pushed the Match King out of the dies, where the bullet is formed to exacting tolerances. They told me that the hollow point has no functional purpose.

The Hague Convention of 1899, prohibited bullets that would intentional expand upon impact. As SMK bullets have a "hollow point" that is not intended for expansion, they are legal in warfare.

 

[338edge]

Great thread. John Burns got me started using Bergers in the late 90's. The biggest difference I see in this thread is shot placement. Burns started using the high shoulder shots. Absolutely puts the animals down at all ranges. I have since used Bergers and have had my share of one shot kills using the high shoulder. Almost always no exit wound. The bullet grenades into the spine etc. Try the high shoulder it just flat out works. I've been using the 7mmstw with great success. Ranges from 70 yards to 978 on elk. All one shot kills. Every year for 20 years we I have killed elk. With that said I do know have two of Shawn's rifles. One in a Canyon rifle in a 338 edge another in the LRKM chambered in 338 Terminator. Have killed with the Terminator and it flat out puts them down. With that said it doesn't kill them faster than the 7mmstw. I do not have any data past 1000 yards where in my opinion the big 338 will definitely outperform the 7. Walt Berger himself thinks so highly of John Burns he had him write an article in his newest reloading manual. John Burns back then mostly used the 7mmstw using the 168 Bergers at 3250.

 

[Chick]

The 7mm is not the problem. The bullet speed and proper expansion is the issue. I have taken a ton of animals with my 7mm08 and 7 mag, but mostly the 7mm08. There is something about 2800fps on animals out to 300 yds, that is deadly. I switched to the Berger VLD Hunting 140 gr, in my 7mm08 this year. Of 5 animals shot, the bullet failed on 2. One was a 200 lb whitetail, in East Texas, which is about as big as they get. The buck didn't act like he had been hit. 30 yards into the woods, I found blood, and spent 6 hours with 3 dogs, looking for him. Well, here we are 6 1/2 weeks later, I got a pic of him. You can plainly see the white spot which marks the exit wound. He is close to 40 lbs lighter, and poor from recovery, but that buck should have been dead, with the bullet going through both lungs. The other failure was on a hog. I shot her in the head, and the bullet hit exactly where the crosshairs were, yet did not penetrate skull. It deflected down and exited out where the neck and shoulder meet, on the opposite side. I have probably made that same shot on a 100 hogs and never had a bullet not take the top of the head off. I spent several hours today, working up another load with Nosler BT. The BT messes up some meat, but I have never lost one animal with it.

 

[Tradchef]

Here are a couple berger kills from last year and this year. .308 and 7 Rem Mag. Cow was at 375 yards, first doe and smaller mulie buck were at 120 and 160 yards, last doe and her shoulder above that pic was 200 yards. I wouldn’t say they are perfect by any means but accuracy is pretty damn good and kill animals pretty well from what I’ve seen. I got more fragmentation from my .308 with the 168s but my 7mag was pretty devastating. The cow was with the .308 and it did exactly what it was supposed to at that range and the smaller buck was .308 as well. I hit him quartering to in the pocket. He stood for about 10 seconds dead on his feet. That bullet fragmented a ton in the organs but had minimal meat loss.

 

[Chick]

Here are a couple berger kills from last year and this year. .308 and 7 Rem Mag. Cow was at 375 yards, first doe and smaller mulie buck were at 120 and 160 yards, last doe and her shoulder above that pic was 200 yards. I wouldn’t say they are perfect by any means but accuracy is pretty damn good and kill animals pretty well from what I’ve seen. I got more fragmentation from my .308 with the 168s but my 7mag was pretty devastating. The cow was with the .308 and it did exactly what it was supposed to at that range and the smaller buck was .308 as well. I hit him quartering to in the pocket. He stood for about 10 seconds dead on his feet. That bullet fragmented a ton in the organs but had minimal meat loss.

I shot 5 animals with the Bergers this year. 3 of them were like what you show, but 2 were failures. Bottom line is, there are too many good bullets out there, to worry about bullet failure. Accuracy was never a problem. They are surgically accurate. But, when just one pencils in and pencils out, and you have proof of it, you can get pretty disgusted.

 

[Tradchef]

Shoot what you are comfortable with is the bottom line.

 

[jacknifejc]

I wouldn’t use Berger bullets even if they gave them to me and paid me to shoot them. They do not perform consistently. There are just way too many good bullets out there to take the gamble.