Are we in a hunting bubble?

MallardSX2

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I agree that people who recreate on public land should be paying their fair share to do so and hunting and fishing appears to be footing the bill for the majority of the expense. This of course is only my opinion..I wish they would lay off of the hunters wallet for a change and go after money from other people who are recreating....Make those hippie kayakers and campers pay the piper....

Also with the ease of applications and strategy at everyone fingertips I dont see anything reversing anytime soon as far as the pressure goes for western game.
 

Billinsd

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Well, not everyone in CA is "rich" or lives on the beach. I would venture to say that most hunters live in smaller, more rural areas, not big cities where prices are sky high. The median income here is about 75k, the rest of the country is about 62K. You cannot base everything about CA on the coastal areas of LA and SF.
Oh, and gas is only 3.05 here in Sacramento 😁
No, the majority of us Californio hunters live in expensive burbs, probably have $200k plus family income, sub million dollar houses, but are not house poor. That's the 20 or 30 California hunters I know.
 

mlgc20

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When I think of a bubble, I think of a situation where prices are inflated due to some artificial means. (I.e., the housing bubble due to the easing of credit standards. Which I realize is an oversimplification.) The thing is, NR hunting prices are largely being capped. We like to complain about the cost of an NR tag. But the reality is, if there was a "free market" on NR hunting tags, prices would be significantly higher. My guess is Wyoming, for example, could double the cost of an NR tag without a decrease in demand. And by demand, I mean people purchasing tags. Certainly, there would be fewer folks apply. But, the applications would still outweigh the number of tags being sold. There would be a lot of us here on Rokslide complaining about boycotting Wyoming, etc. And some folks would really drop out. But ultimately, they are still going to sell those NR tags and there would be the same number of hunters in the woods. Until that supply/demand trade-off changes, there really isn't a bubble that exists. At least in my definition.
 

Rich M

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It does seem to be a bubble with an artificial influx of hunters - many, many guys are asking "how do I hunt with 0 points", "where to go OTC", "where to take my dad, sister, cousin on a big game hunt now", etc.. That's not a long term mentality. More serious folks are doing the research and not just leaping.

Look at the current excitement about preference points - folks are bemoaning not having enough points and aren't willing to wait for the hunt of their dreams, it has to be now. Again, not exactly a long term approach.

As with all fads, it will fade. Folks will only stand for so much frustration at not being able to achieve what the pros on TV do. It takes years to learn how to hunt and shoot and whatever else you need to do to be successful. Many guys aren't willing to do what it takes, get disillusioned, and move on to the next fun thing.

It was funny, had my 80 yo father w me this past season and he changed his mind, wanted to hunt - he has no concept of preference points or that hunting licenses could be anything but over the counter. None what-so-ever. Was disappointed he couldn't get a license while there. He also saw more bucks across from camp than we did hunting the canyons and such.
 

Billinsd

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Less hunter numbers, way way less percentage wise. Biggest numbers of hunters is Michigan and Pennsylvania I believe. Western hunting gaining more and more popularity, mostly due to social media exposure. More and better technology, consultants on how, where to hunt, etc. Booming demand for trophy hunting, backcountry hunting. Most of these Non resident hunters are affluent suburbanites, middle aged or older. The rules for the pyramid bonus point systems have been modified, so that some random tags are available. As residents demand less tags for non residents, non resident fees will continue to go up as, available tags go down. The public agencies will never have enough money. Eventually, the bonus point system may get dismantled and those non residents who have been playing by the rules and paying for the points will see the goal posts that have been moved down field tens of yards replaced with a soccer net, thus they will be SOL. However, these folks are in their 50s and older and don't matter. As for the future electronics, social media, and "the machines" are all our future youth will really care about. The relentless PC culture in schools and society will eventually turn society against hunting completely. In a hundred years people will look back at hunting as an oddity like many my age look back at duelling, rooster and dog fighting. Note, I'm not disparaging hunting. I'm saying future generations will. My kids wont be hunters, not really. Mostly, because we live in the burbs and it's very time consuming and too arduous to travel to a place to hunt. And there's too much instant gratification at their finger tips. I love, love, love to hunt. I'm bitten real hard, or I would have given it up decades ago. At work and socially I'm a real oddity as a hunter. Most seem to respect me to my face. Some joke or imply that since I hunt it's not much of a leap to becoming a psychopathic killer. I kinda believe they believe that. My pastor at church said that to me. He's odd though, he insinuated a kid with a hoody was going to be a unabomber. It ain't good in California, except that most are numb for pot and liquor and instant gratification. So sad. Bill
 

Billinsd

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The non resident bonus point pyramid will crash in less than 20 years I predict. There aren't enough people younger than 50 to fill the ranks. There will be a big adjustment, crash.
 
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Rob5589

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No, the majority of us Californio hunters live in expensive burbs, probably have $200k plus family income, sub million dollar houses, but are not house poor. That's the 20 or 30 California hunters I know.
I would imagine being in San Diego is a tad different than Sacramento. It is interesting how California gets blamed for everything money wise in America. Now it is even being blamed for the increase in western hunting prices.
 

Billinsd

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I would imagine being in San Diego is a tad different than Sacramento. It is interesting how California gets blamed for everything money wise in America. Now it is even being blamed for the increase in western hunting prices.
Californio's are by and large wealthier than most other Americans. We are responsible for raising prices of goods, services and of course Western hunting prices, because we are willing to keep paying no matter how high the prices go. I know I am. We drive housing prices up when we flee California. This doesn't make us bad, and of course this is very frustrating to people that make less money. Of course there are lots of other wealthy hunters in US that drive up prices. This is why I don't really encourage my kids or others to get into hunting. It can be extremely expensive as a non resident.
 
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Rich M

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Less hunter numbers, way way less percentage wise. Biggest numbers of hunters is Michigan and Pennsylvania I believe. Western hunting gaining more and more popularity, mostly due to social media exposure. More and better technology, consultants on how, where to hunt, etc. Booming demand for trophy hunting, backcountry hunting. Most of these Non resident hunters are affluent suburbanites, middle aged or older. The rules for the pyramid bonus point systems have been modified, so that some random tags are available. As residents demand less tags for non residents, non resident fees will continue to go up as, available tags go down. The public agencies will never have enough money. Eventually, the bonus point system may get dismantled and those non residents who have been playing by the rules and paying for the points will see the goal posts that have been moved down field tens of yards replaced with a soccer net, thus they will be SOL. However, these folks are in their 50s and older and don't matter. As for the future electronics, social media, and "the machines" are all our future youth will really care about. The relentless PC culture in schools and society will eventually turn society against hunting completely. In a hundred years people will look back at hunting as an oddity like many my age look back at duelling, rooster and dog fighting. Note, I'm not disparaging hunting. I'm saying future generations will. My kids wont be hunters, not really. Mostly, because we live in the burbs and it's very time consuming and too arduous to travel to a place to hunt. And there's too much instant gratification at their finger tips. I love, love, love to hunt. I'm bitten real hard, or I would have given it up decades ago. At work and socially I'm a real oddity as a hunter. Most seem to respect me to my face. Some joke or imply that since I hunt it's not much of a leap to becoming a psychopathic killer. I kinda believe they believe that. My pastor at church said that to me. He's odd though, he insinuated a kid with a hoody was going to be a unabomber. It ain't good in California, except that most are numb for pot and liquor and instant gratification. So sad. Bill
This was well written and conveys a lot of what I see as truth.

Funny how you say the 50 & up crowd doesn't count - I resemble that and feel exactly that way. Instead of helping maintain us, they keep trying to modify everything to fit the new age folks and further alienate the large group of older guys. In my case - it is working. The more they cater to the younger demographic, the more they lose me.

It is a downward spiral - circling the drain as it would.

People think animals are the same as people - dogs are the same as children. That translates into big game as well. The further folks get from their food, the more human attributes they ascribe to them.

The whole hoodie thing made me laugh. We had hoodies all those years ago and didn't wear the hood up unless it was raining. Sure draws attention when you see a young guy or gal with the hood up - doesn't it? Unabomber, no, clueless about the negative attention that it draws, yes.

The whole pot thing made me laugh too.

We have raised up a generation with values so different from our own. How'd it happen?
 

KHNC

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Hunting is no longer for peasants. Except possibly squirrel or rabbit hunting. Peasants spend their time working to pay for small houses, trucks and the occasional hunting license out west. Wait, i think i am a peasant! What am i going to do?
 

Billinsd

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We have raised up a generation with values so different from our own. How'd it happen?
I honestly don't see it as much of a generational thing as a society thing. In my day to day life I'm far more annoyed with folks 40 and up to about 65, much more than younger folks. When I'm dropping off or picking up my daughter at high school the kids are far better, more cautious, courteous drivers than the parents are. That's probably due to the fact that most of the parents were born in another country and the kids were born here. More often than not when someone cuts me off or does something offensive it's someone my age or older. Driving has become much more difficult to get out of San Diego and all the burbs. And Las Vegas now often takes about an hour to drive through. Same with Salt Lake area and burbs. The drive to go hunting is not only long, it's become a real grind.
 

KHNC

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My elk hunting partner is from NorCal. One of the best dudes i know. Would hunt with him any time or any where. We have been sucessful on most of our elk hunts too! He knows his stuff! When the time comes , i jump in the truck from NC and him from Redding, CA. Meet up somewhere in the west every september. Just waiting to see where we draw this year!
 

Mike Islander

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I have to say making hunts complicated and sneakily charging 2-5 times what the license cost by requiring points has turned me off to the desire to go anywhere I can't buy an over the counter hunt. I know there are guys willing to do this, and more power to them. I agree with others that understand that if you make something difficult to do, it will dramatically reduce new members of that community and kills off existing members. Then you lose the most important determinant of continued success to anything that depends on government permission...voters.

Here in SC we have a wonderful state with tremendous diversity and very long seasons. Instead of trying to hunt elk for the first time this season I've decided to hit the beautiful mountains in the NW quadrant of our state and still-hunt whitetail. Going to bring the spotter and see if I can do this similarly to how someone might hunt in the thickly forested Western states. At the moment, at least, I am pretty turned off by all the points, cost, and complicated requirements to go hunt as an out of stater.
 

camping1601

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I have to say making hunts complicated and sneakily charging 2-5 times what the license cost by requiring points has turned me off to the desire to go anywhere I can't buy an over the counter hunt. I know there are guys willing to do this, and more power to them. I agree with others that understand that if you make something difficult to do, it will dramatically reduce new members of that community and kills off existing members. Then you lose the most important determinant of continued success to anything that depends on government permission...voters.

Here in SC we have a wonderful state with tremendous diversity and very long seasons. Instead of trying to hunt elk for the first time this season I've decided to hit the beautiful mountains in the NW quadrant of our state and still-hunt whitetail. Going to bring the spotter and see if I can do this similarly to how someone might hunt in the thickly forested Western states. At the moment, at least, I am pretty turned off by all the points, cost, and complicated requirements to go hunt as an out of stater.
I'm a fellow easterner that loves to chase wt's in the mountains, but I travel to CO chasing elk for 9 of last 10 years. I reset myself and this whole pp thing and just hunt otc or a 1 point unit.
Don't let all the internet bickering ruin your perspective of western hunting as it's not really as bad as many make it sound.
 

Mike Islander

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I'm a fellow easterner that loves to chase wt's in the mountains, but I travel to CO chasing elk for 9 of last 10 years. I reset myself and this whole pp thing and just hunt otc or a 1 point unit.
Don't let all the internet bickering ruin your perspective of western hunting as it's not really as bad as many make it sound.
Like I said, OTC is attractive to me. :)
 

Rich M

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I honestly don't see it as much of a generational thing as a society thing. In my day to day life I'm far more annoyed with folks 40 and up to about 65, much more than younger folks. When I'm dropping off or picking up my daughter at high school the kids are far better, more cautious, courteous drivers than the parents are. That's probably due to the fact that most of the parents were born in another country and the kids were born here. More often than not when someone cuts me off or does something offensive it's someone my age or older. Driving has become much more difficult to get out of San Diego and all the burbs. And Las Vegas now often takes about an hour to drive through. Same with Salt Lake area and burbs. The drive to go hunting is not only long, it's become a real grind.
I'm in Orlando. They say we are growing at 1,500 folks per week and projected for the next 20 years. Don't know where we're gonna put em all. Driving is still somewhat manageable around here.

Societal changes is a good way to put it.
 

KHNC

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I have to say making hunts complicated and sneakily charging 2-5 times what the license cost by requiring points has turned me off to the desire to go anywhere I can't buy an over the counter hunt. I know there are guys willing to do this, and more power to them. I agree with others that understand that if you make something difficult to do, it will dramatically reduce new members of that community and kills off existing members. Then you lose the most important determinant of continued success to anything that depends on government permission...voters.

Here in SC we have a wonderful state with tremendous diversity and very long seasons. Instead of trying to hunt elk for the first time this season I've decided to hit the beautiful mountains in the NW quadrant of our state and still-hunt whitetail. Going to bring the spotter and see if I can do this similarly to how someone might hunt in the thickly forested Western states. At the moment, at least, I am pretty turned off by all the points, cost, and complicated requirements to go hunt as an out of stater.
Well then, you will be in my back yard. I live a mile from SC state line. I know the mtns you refer too. Not a lot of hunter pressure, very few deer, and some big bucks. Some HUGE bears too, if you manage to see one. Really nasty country. It will prep you for idaho for sure, if you ever decide to go west.
 

Mike Islander

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Well then, you will be in my back yard. I live a mile from SC state line. I know the mtns you refer too. Not a lot of hunter pressure, very few deer, and some big bucks. Some HUGE bears too, if you manage to see one. Really nasty country. It will prep you for idaho for sure, if you ever decide to go west.
Sounds wonderful. I actually went to Clemson. My wife and I have covered a lot of ground wandering the hills, canoeing the Chattooga, etc. Bear hunting would be wild. I may do that someday.

I hunted WY last year with what was essentially an OTC pronghorn tag (100% draw rate where I chose to hunt). That was a great trip.
 

KHNC

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Sounds wonderful. I actually went to Clemson. My wife and I have covered a lot of ground wandering the hills, canoeing the Chattooga, etc. Bear hunting would be wild. I may do that someday.

I hunted WY last year with what was essentially an OTC pronghorn tag (100% draw rate where I chose to hunt). That was a great trip.
Awesome! Hope your mtn hunt upstate works out for you!
 

Desk Jockey

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It feels like a bit of a bubble to me. Seems like the hipster crowd got wind of hunting and took interest for a while it that is cresting. TBD how many of the skinny jean, neck beard crowd sticks around or do they move off to blacksmithing or distilling moonshine or something.

It does feel like some new blood has come into the sport, which is good and needed. It also feels like there are some head winds. Here in the East they got rid of bear hunting in New Jersey and a few other options. Most antis don’t understand huntings place in game Managment and would prefer to hire assassins to cull deer in the dark of night and dump the carcasses in landfills than support hunting.
 
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