Are you overbowed? Let's have a discussion

[Wilderlife]

Absolutely, but a lot of what you're talking about is probably more applicable to arrow build/design than the bow specifically. It's like a lot of the stuff Snyder has been syaing since he switched to trad. You see stacks of people shooting heavy compound bows with light arrows and expandable broadheads because they want a beautiful trajectory but they often get hopeless penetration as a result. A recurve or longbow that's much less powerful in comparison but with a much heavier arrow and a cut on contact head seems to perform much better on game.

I can say this has been the case with my experience. When I was shooting a compound I didn't know anything about arrow building so my arrows were very light and they don't penetrate anywhere near as far as my trad arrows now that are significantly heavier but also going significantly slower. Same broadheads.

But bringing it back to the heavier bow idea, it's the same as with rifles - more power is always better if you can shoot it beautifully. If you can't, less power is definitely better if it means you can actally shoot consistently.

 

[Foggy Mountain]

But bringing it back to the heavier bow idea, it's the same as with rifles - more power is always better if you can shoot it beautifully. If you can't, less power is definitely better if it means you can actually shoot consistently.

Amen to that. Pretty common sense

 

[Seeknelk]

I once traveled to the Kzoo trad rendevous in Michigan. What I observed there at the test range (where you could test out various trad bows) was about 80-90% of guys who were shooting bows too heavy for them, short drawing and snap shooting. I would be most of them had no idea what their actual draw length is. Their arrows were typically 3-4" in front of the riser when they released but I'm sure in their mind they were drawing them all the way back and reaching anchor. Very few, in fact, reached anchor.

I get it. I started out with a 65# Assenheimer that I took in trade for some tree work I did as a teen. It was WAY too much for me and I probably looked like those guys at Kzoo when I shot it. I short-drew and snap-shot for about 10 years until I met someone who actually knew how to shoot correctly and asked him to teach me. My draw length grew over 2" in one lesson.

I bet if you went to kzoo next year you'd be amazed at the shooting form and how it's changed from all the good influences on the web. (It ain't all bad I guess) Just guessing. Barebow target archery is the fastest growing division in many places like Lancasters shoot. Lot of GREAT shooters coming out of the woodwork with a little proper coaching , even online .

 

[Seeknelk]

Yes, It is possible to make a deer “dead” with just about any bow weight on the market with any field point on the market, with a perfect shot. But that certainly is not the thought process here.
If an arrow hits an animal and stops or slows down enough to not penetrate the vitals, then the bow and/or arrow build was not “enough”. Unfortunately, very few bowholders think in this manner or care enough about killing AND recovering. Most care more about reaching and hitting the animal than they do about reaching and blowing thru the animal.

Actually, I'd say MOST bowhunters care very much about getting penetration and killing stuff. Not sure where you get these generalizations. But there is a ton of good info( some is over the top, we don't need 800 grain arrows to kill deer) out there, and a lot of people learning how to make great killing arrows. And it's very popular because people care.
And penetration is way more about the arrow and broadhead build than bow poundage, within reason.

 

[Newtosavage]

I bet if you went to kzoo next year you'd be amazed at the shooting form and how it's changed from all the good influences on the web. (It ain't all bad I guess) Just guessing. Barebow target archery is the fastest growing division in many places like Lancasters shoot. Lot of GREAT shooters coming out of the woodwork with a little proper coaching , even online .

I'm sure you're right. That was 18 years ago.

 

[Wilderlife]

Actually, I'd say MOST bowhunters care very much about getting penetration and killing stuff. Not sure where you get these generalizations. But there is a ton of good info( some is over the top, we don't need 800 grain arrows to kill deer) out there, and a lot of people learning how to make great killing arrows. And it's very popular because people care.
And penetration is way more about the arrow and broadhead build than bow poundage, within reason.

Exactly the point I was trying to make above there mate. My 65ish pound compound bow with a roughly 400gn arrow penetrated far less than my 51# recurve bow and a 450gn arrow - same broadheads!
There is a lot of content out there now about whitetail hunters getting pathetic penetration with their compounds and expandable heads (this is from an outsider looking in) but there is also heaps of information about building good arrows now as well.
I know it sounds ridiculous but when I finally started to pay attention to gpi of my arrow shafts and discovered how to buy inserts and glue them in, my world changed! We all need to start somewhere but we also know that confidence is everything too.

 

[Foggy Mountain]

Exactly the point I was trying to make above there mate. My 65ish pound compound bow with a roughly 400gn arrow penetrated far less than my 51# recurve bow and a 450gn arrow - same broadheads!
There is a lot of content out there now about whitetail hunters getting pathetic penetration with their compounds and expandable heads (this is from an outsider looking in) but there is also heaps of information about building good arrows now as well.
I know it sounds ridiculous but when I finally started to pay attention to gpi of my arrow shafts and discovered how to buy inserts and glue them in, my world changed! We all need to start somewhere but we also know that confidence is everything too.

Wilderlife gotta say one thing a little off topic cause I wanna keep things straight. Not saying you’re wrong or anything but I myself shot trad and compound both for many years. I shot plenty of deer w both. As a taxidermist I saw plenty of animals. I shot deer w regular and mechanical heads (jakhammer). Compound of course. Lots of my friends still shoot mechanicals. Not one has an arrow doesn’t zip right through.
My set up was heavier, 70 lbs prob the lightest as an adult, as a young man 90lb compounds, 75lb recurves so that can’t be taken into account but I’ve also mentored lots of kids with fairly light bows, and they typically go through. The kids don’t shoot mechanicals though and perhaps that’s your point? I never weighed anything so I can’t say arrow weights but there’s many rigs to reference. Nothing was geared for super light or super heavy. Strictly tuned.
I just haven’t, in my experience, noticed any of that type thing w the compounds getting pathetic penetration you describe. I haven’t touched a wheel bow now in 4 years but that’s not super far removed.
Hope you don’t see anything as objectionable towards you. Just adding what I consider a valid observation

 

[Wilderlife]

Not at all mate. Most of what I'm referring to is either seeing my experience or stuff that I've read/heard on podcasts like Kifarucast. I'm not throwing it out there as my own research or knowledge, byt Aron Snyder regular talks about seeing a huge increase in penetration switching to a recurve with cut on contact heads over his heavy compound bows and mechanicals.

My own experience is more related to feral pigs which in my experience are a much tougher animal than deer.

In any case it all comes back to the idea that arrow construction and broadhead construction/design is hugely important. Some of the stuff I've seen with lighter bows and heavy arrows has been interesting and the recent MeatEater podcast with Ed Ashby was a good listen. I personally wouldn't feel underbowed taking my 42# recurve after some of the stuff I hunt, and that's with 450gn arrows and good cut on contact heads. That doesn't mean that my heavier bows aren't better choices however, providing of course I can hit stuff with them (making the same point again obviously).

 

[TaterTot]

My my, quite a few "men" here with tissue paper for skin.

I don't dissapear, I work 72 hours a week. Don't worry I got time coming off soon.

No. It's his MO, show up, spout nonsense, then disappear.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Newtosavage]

You can't talk about draw weights without it eventually turning into a penis measuring contest.

 

[Wilderlife]

My my, quite a few "men" here with tissue paper for skin.

I don't dissapear, I work 72 hours a week. Don't worry I got time coming off soon.

I don't believe I've got tissue paper for skin. I just asked you a question and you haven't responded yet. This is a message board after all. Do you want to participate in the discussion that's taking place or do you want to pop in, take a dump, and then go away feeling like you've won some sort of internet victory?

 

[Wilderlife]

You can't talk about draw weights without it eventually turning into a penis measuring contest.

If that's the way people want to take it I can't help it. I think it's clear that's not the intention of the video.

Even last night I had someone leave a comment to the effect of "a properly tuned lighter bow is just as effective and more fun."

I find that odd, and interesting.

So how light do we go? You don't need 60# because 50# is just as good. You don't need 50# because 45# is just as good. I get it that it's about broadhead design, arrow tune, and ability of the shooter to place the shot. BUT, all things being equal, more power is not a bad thing. Having said that, the intention of the video isn't to justify heavy bows and convince people they need to shoot heavy bows - in fact I made a specific point in the video of saying this.

Secondly, saying a lighter bow is more fun is entirely subjective. What makes someone think they can tell another person what they should find more fun? Shooting my longbow is certainly more fun than shooting my lighter bows, for a variety of reasons. Is this the part where someone accuses me of having a big ego again?

 

[oldgoat]

If that's the way people want to take it I can't help it. I think it's clear that's not the intention of the video.

Even last night I had someone leave a comment to the effect of "a properly tuned lighter bow is just as effective and more fun."

I find that odd, and interesting.

So how light do we go? You don't need 60# because 50# is just as good. You don't need 50# because 45# is just as good. I get it that it's about broadhead design, arrow tune, and ability of the shooter to place the shot. BUT, all things being equal, more power is not a bad thing. Having said that, the intention of the video isn't to justify heavy bows and convince people they need to shoot heavy bows - in fact I made a specific point in the video of saying this.

Secondly, saying a lighter bow is more fun is entirely subjective. What makes someone think they can tell another person what they should find more fun? Shooting my longbow is certainly more fun than shooting my lighter bows, for a variety of reasons. Is this the part where someone accuses me of having a big ego again?

I think what people are getting at and I've personally seen it at rmsgear, people drop weight but actually get to full draw with a good release and low and behold the same exact arrow is going faster

 

[Newtosavage]

If that's the way people want to take it I can't help it. I think it's clear that's not the intention of the video.

Even last night I had someone leave a comment to the effect of "a properly tuned lighter bow is just as effective and more fun."

I find that odd, and interesting.

So how light do we go? You don't need 60# because 50# is just as good. You don't need 50# because 45# is just as good. I get it that it's about broadhead design, arrow tune, and ability of the shooter to place the shot. BUT, all things being equal, more power is not a bad thing. Having said that, the intention of the video isn't to justify heavy bows and convince people they need to shoot heavy bows - in fact I made a specific point in the video of saying this.

Secondly, saying a lighter bow is more fun is entirely subjective. What makes someone think they can tell another person what they should find more fun? Shooting my longbow is certainly more fun than shooting my lighter bows, for a variety of reasons. Is this the part where someone accuses me of having a big ego again?

I think it's time for a 15# bow for bear, deer, elk and moose thread.

 

[Newtosavage]

I think what people are getting at and I've personally seen it at rmsgear, people drop weight but actually get to full draw with a good release and low and behold the same exact arrow is going faster

Yup, exactly. What's funny is you can hand a 65# bow to a guy and they will short-draw it to 28# and be shooting 65# at 28". OR, you can hand them a 50# bow and they will get fully into line and then be shooting a 60# bow at 31". There's a lot of energy under the draw force curve for those three inches at 50-60# and that will be a faster bow than the 65# at 28.

 

[Rob5589]

I'm just starting out and have 25 and 35 lb limbs which are around 30 and 40 otf at my dl. I wouldn't want to start heavier than the 35's until I knew what a proper shot feels like. Thus the reason for the 25's. I'm thinking 50 or so otf is going to be plenty when set up correctly.

What I have found while scouring for info is that the ilf system can be be very efficient, even at lower weights. The new "super curves," carbon layers, etc, appear to be worth 5 or so pounds of draw weight. Like compounds, new tech, new materials, equal improved efficiency.

 

[oldgoat]

I'm just starting out and have 25 and 35 lb limbs which are around 30 and 40 otf at my dl. I wouldn't want to start heavier than the 35's until I knew what a proper shot feels like. Thus the reason for the 25's. I'm thinking 50 or so otf is going to be plenty when set up correctly.

What I have found while scouring for info is that the ilf system can be be very efficient, even at lower weights. The new "super curves," carbon layers, etc, appear to be worth 5 or so pounds of draw weight. Like compounds, new tech, new materials, equal improved efficiency.

There's some cons with those super curves too, better than they used to be though, still have a set of Dryad ACS for my wife if the arthritis will cooperate enough for her to get back out hunting! I think they are great equalizers though for folks that need a little more oomph than they can generate on their own with more conventional designs!

 

[Wrench]

If that's the way people want to take it I can't help it. I think it's clear that's not the intention of the video.

Even last night I had someone leave a comment to the effect of "a properly tuned lighter bow is just as effective and more fun."

I find that odd, and interesting.

So how light do we go? You don't need 60# because 50# is just as good. You don't need 50# because 45# is just as good. I get it that it's about broadhead design, arrow tune, and ability of the shooter to place the shot. BUT, all things being equal, more power is not a bad thing. Having said that, the intention of the video isn't to justify heavy bows and convince people they need to shoot heavy bows - in fact I made a specific point in the video of saying this.

Secondly, saying a lighter bow is more fun is entirely subjective. What makes someone think they can tell another person what they should find more fun? Shooting my longbow is certainly more fun than shooting my lighter bows, for a variety of reasons. Is this the part where someone accuses me of having a big ego again?

 

[Beendare]

I think it’
.

 

[GLB]

My random thoughts on this. Every legit archery coach (I’m certainly not one but have done enough wrong to know right) I know will tell you to start with a comfortable draw weight to learn proper form. I think for most that’s gonna be under 50lbs and probably around 40 lbs or less.

Building good form with a bow that you can comfortably draw from the beginning is going to do great things for your shooting longevity. As you progress you can step up gradually in bow weight as needed probably in +5 lbs increments.

Nobody said that you should only own one bow, or one set of limbs if you have a takedown.