Army Corps says no to massive gold mine proposed near Bristol Bay in Alaska

[william schmaltz]

he still seems like a loser.

Meh, if we keep judging people on their politics without hearing their personal reasoning directly from them, we are setting ourselves up for failure. I disagree with almost all the governors development fights. When he sits down on forums and explains his reasoning it makes sense and he's doing what he was voted to do. I don't have to agree with him to see that. He sits behind me in church almost every Saturday evening and I find him to be a genuine, kind, and personable individual and have even got a few hunting stories out of him.

His recall petition was started because after every single politician in the history of time promised to make an effort to balance the budget, he was the one that actually followed through. It sent the union folks into a tantrum. I work for the state and my floor has now lost 6 positions to budget cuts (no one lost their job) and I can't think of a single person that had any change to their work load. Another 3 are on the chopping block this year. I'm always the Ron Swanson in the corner chanting "slash it, slash it."

 

[Conrad101st]

Perfect example of why these things are questionable:

Navajo Nation, New Mexico reach settlements over mine spill

 

[Marbles]

How does that guy keep getting reelected? Is there seriously anyone up there who thinks he cares about their opinion or welfare?

As others have pointed out, it is his first term. He got elected by promising to give people money the state does not really have and cutting everything in the state's budget to the bone; other than an unnecessary multi million dollar road project in the Valley where a lot of his support is, that he approved. The first budget he pushed through was quickly modified once it became clear that his cuts would result in Alaska loosing significantly more Federal funding (in road money and such) than it saved in cuts.

All I can remember from his campaign is incessantly promising to "pay a full PFD." At the time I though he was myopic and sounded dimwitted. Now I believe he simply knew better than to say what he really thought about things and promising to hand out money to people was a distraction to keep anyone from paying attention to the hard questions. Questions like 'do you support Pebble Mine?' and all that answering that would entail. Plenty of people up here disagree with me on all this though; it will be interesting to see if he gets reelected.

The funniest thing is that at the time of his first election I did not know anything about Pebble and thought all the No Pebble Mine stickers on cars in Ketchikan meant there where a lot of ignorant tree huggers in the area. I probably would have had a better opinion of him had he come out in strong support of Pebble at the time. Looking back at my own bias and ill informed opinion is rather amusing.

 

[AK Troutbum]

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Proud to say that I’ve had this on my receiver cover for about the last 15 years or so, and I’ve also periodically contributed to the cause.


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[AK Troutbum]

Well here it is. I guess the Pebble Partnership is okay with throwing some more money at this, and given the projected amount of money that could come from this mine, I guess I can’t blame them. I do wonder what their chances are now especially in light of our new political situation.

Company appeals rejection of controversial Pebble Mine

The company behind the controversial proposed Pebble Mine in Alaska has appealed the government’s rejection of a permit for the project. In a statement on Thursday, the Pebble Limited Partners…

thehill.com

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[z987k]

Well here it is. I guess the Pebble Partnership is okay with throwing some more money at this, and given the projected amount of money that could come from this mine, I guess I can’t blame them. I do wonder what their chances are now especially in light of our new political situation.

Company appeals rejection of controversial Pebble Mine

The company behind the controversial proposed Pebble Mine in Alaska has appealed the government’s rejection of a permit for the project. In a statement on Thursday, the Pebble Limited Partners…

thehill.com

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Less than 0.

 

[AcridSaint]

Well here it is. I guess the Pebble Partnership is okay with throwing some more money at this, and given the projected amount of money that could come from this mine, I guess I can’t blame them. I do wonder what their chances are now especially in light of our new political situation.

Company appeals rejection of controversial Pebble Mine

The company behind the controversial proposed Pebble Mine in Alaska has appealed the government’s rejection of a permit for the project. In a statement on Thursday, the Pebble Limited Partners…

thehill.com

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My take is that it just means they are stalled 4-8 years. A company that has a 120 year outlook can wait the new admin out.

 

[william schmaltz]

MSN

MSN

A nice kick of the can down the road this morning. It will never be over until protections are signed into place that would require an act of congress to remove. I'm hesitant to support such a protection because of what they like to tie into things like that, but today's news is a welcomed short term solution IMO.

 

[Bull_n_heat]

MSN

MSN

A nice kick of the can down the road this morning. It will never be over until protections are signed into place that would require an act of congress to remove. I'm hesitant to support such a protection because of what they like to tie into things like that, but today's news is a welcomed short term solution IMO.

Agreed. This is great news in the short to mid-term. Worth celebrating for sure!.

However, I'm reminded of a quote I learned in a Conservation Biology class: "Never give up on a bad decision". This thing won't be truly dead until the ink dries on a permanent protection from congress.

 

[Pony Soldier]

I have a certain reluctance to stick my foot in the water on this one. For background I spent 8 years reviewing every EIS in western US. That fit well in the catagory of cruel and unusual punishment. My background is mining engineering, fisheries management and geology.

I have not read the EIS, nor looked in detail at the geology let alone the mine proposal. The purpose of the industry is to profitably develop and operate a mine in the shortest period of time, at the least cost, and the least risk of failure. The goal of the government is to protect the state from risk, environmental disasters and the 'what ifs'. The polititions position is to mediate conflicts, support both the state and the industry and keep getting re-elected.

Although the industry has the technical staff to fully understand the operation and its risks, it is usually driven by its investors and board of directors. The technical staff may have input but often that is provided by consultants that are driven by rewards / contracts.

The government rarely can afford the technical staff needed to properly evaluate the proposal from the mining companies. The EPA are the least qualified to do anything with mining. They have no technical staff with background in the necessary fields. The Corps of Engineers are not much better but my experience is they seem to contract people as they need them. The agencies typically have a preponderance of environmental nuts that are there to save the world.

The polititions are driven by their donors and their constituants. Consequently their time is split between listening to their support people (which are young and have no technical background) and the lobbyists. I would say that their primary job is between playing keep away and being prone to making bad decisions.

The agencies have the ability to assign adequate bonds and crisis controls but are often limited by political influence or ignorance.

The industry is commonly plagued by short term planning, money management and egos. In 43 years of being in the middle of this or being on the outside watching -- carefully. I have yet to see an unbiased risk analysis. Most everything is driven by the response to - 'what question did you ask' ?

The choice of development is Alaska's choice. They win, lose or delay based on their decision. What options are possible may not be known for some time.

I like responsible mining and think it is the best choice if done correctly. Some of the largest elk and deer herds I have seen in my career have been on the reclaimed ground at mine sites. They have habitat, high quality feed and security. It's always interesting watching 100 elk chewing their cuds watching haul trucks drive by within touching distance.

Whether this is a good decision or the only decision can only be determined after careful investigation of all available data by a neutral qualified investigator. Its a shame there are so few of them.

 

[william schmaltz]

Whether this is a good decision or the only decision can only be determined after careful investigation of all available data by a neutral qualified investigator. Its a shame there are so few of them.

Thanks for the perspective. I particularly agree with this.

I've also found my way into environmental compliance. From working in fisheries for several years, to working as a roughneck, and then into ecological/geological/environmental consulting and compliance the last decade. Most of the contracts I work on are very large and held by USACE and I work in close proximity with EPA. From what I've seen, USACE and EPA both seek technical contracts when they lack in expertise. Same with SOA.

At the end of the day, Pebble is just different from any other mining project by leaps and bounds. The containment pond alone would be 10 square miles and hold up to 10 billion tons of waste that will require treatment in perpetuity. All while sitting in extremely close proximity to two faults that have produced earthquakes up to 7.9 M within the last couple of decades. About 40% of all tailings ponds in the US have failed, and I don't believe any of those were even influenced by tectonic activity. I'm not an engineer, but when I look at that, it sure seems like more of a factor of 'when' that thing fails and not 'if'.

Now add in the complexity and economic value of the watershed which is also unlike anywhere else. If/when the pond fails, it will release to the watershed and gross amounts of contamination will travel all the way to Bristol Bay. Even if it just travels to Lake Illiamna, the impact on spawning grounds and nurseries will be irreversible. There are several numbers out there, but just the commercial fishery in Bristol Bay has a $1.5 to $2.2 billion annual revenue. I think it's safe to say the commercial sport hunting and fishing industries combined push on hundreds of millions annually. So how do you assign a bond on a resource that size that would be infinite if left alone? Let's just say 50 years of lost revenue plus inflation plus $20 billion minimum for cleanup and long term sampling. So a $150 to $200 billion bond, at minimum.

I'm pro development and I'm pro mining and drilling. There's no confusion where I get my power from, and I recognize I use rare metals that would be extracted by Pebble daily. My roughneck and coal mining buddies back in ND all think I have a Bernie sticker on my car while my environmental compliance coworkers think I drive my duramax to Trump rallies on the weekends. So I guess that tells me I'm doing a good job at looking at things from both sides. I work in environmental regulation and feel like our state does oil, gas, and mining extraction better than anywhere else in the world. But there are times when the juice is not worth the squeeze. And Pebble is the poster child IMO.

Pebble would almost certainly sacrifice a finite resource for an infinite one. This isn't simple reclamation. You can't reclaim tundra that's 10,000 years old and the consequences of the containment pond failing isn't just a lake being shut down to sport fishing.

"The wrong mine for the wrong place." - Senator Ted Stevens (R)

 

[AK Troutbum]

Thanks for the perspective. I particularly agree with this.

I've also found my way into environmental compliance. From working in fisheries for several years, to working as a roughneck, and then into ecological/geological/environmental consulting and compliance the last decade. Most of the contracts I work on are very large and held by USACE and I work in close proximity with EPA. From what I've seen, USACE and EPA both seek technical contracts when they lack in expertise. Same with SOA.

At the end of the day, Pebble is just different from any other mining project by leaps and bounds. The containment pond alone would be 10 square miles and hold up to 10 billion tons of waste that will require treatment in perpetuity. All while sitting in extremely close proximity to two faults that have produced earthquakes up to 7.9 M within the last couple of decades. About 40% of all tailings ponds in the US have failed, and I don't believe any of those were even influenced by tectonic activity. I'm not an engineer, but when I look at that, it sure seems like more of a factor of 'when' that thing fails and not 'if'.

Now add in the complexity and economic value of the watershed which is also unlike anywhere else. If/when the pond fails, it will release to the watershed and gross amounts of contamination will travel all the way to Bristol Bay. Even if it just travels to Lake Illiamna, the impact on spawning grounds and nurseries will be irreversible. There are several numbers out there, but just the commercial fishery in Bristol Bay has a $1.5 to $2.2 billion annual revenue. I think it's safe to say the commercial sport hunting and fishing industries combined push on hundreds of millions annually. So how do you assign a bond on a resource that size that would be infinite if left alone? Let's just say 50 years of lost revenue plus inflation plus $20 billion minimum for cleanup and long term sampling. So a $150 to $200 billion bond, at minimum.

I'm pro development and I'm pro mining and drilling. There's no confusion where I get my power from, and I recognize I use rare metals that would be extracted by Pebble daily. My roughneck and coal mining buddies back in ND all think I have a Bernie sticker on my car while my environmental compliance coworkers think I drive my duramax to Trump rallies on the weekends. So I guess that tells me I'm doing a good job at looking at things from both sides. I work in environmental regulation and feel like our state does oil, gas, and mining extraction better than anywhere else in the world. But there are times when the juice is not worth the squeeze. And Pebble is the poster child IMO.

Pebble would almost certainly sacrifice a finite resource for an infinite one. This isn't simple reclamation. You can't reclaim tundra that's 10,000 years old and the consequences of the containment pond failing isn't just a lake being shut down to sport fishing.

"The wrong mine for the wrong place." - Senator Ted Stevens (R)

^^^Very well stated! That said, I’m still scratching my head on why you would rather drive a Duramax rather than a Cummins?


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[william schmaltz]

For those still following along.

State of Alaska sues EPA over Pebble mine veto, asks Supreme Court to take up the case

The EPA issued a veto under the Clean Water Act to halt the controversial copper and gold mine in Southwest Alaska in January.

www.adn.com

"The governor is ignoring Alaskans and science with this lawsuit. And even more appalling, he is using public funds to prop out-of-state mining executives at the expense of Alaska's salmon and all the people who rely on them. It's anti-Alaskan." Nelli Williams, Trout Unlimited Alaska

62% of Alaskans oppose Pebble Mine. To think there are still people that believe politicians are more concerned with their constituents than lobbyist $$$.

 

[Mykolaivka887]

For those still following along.

State of Alaska sues EPA over Pebble mine veto, asks Supreme Court to take up the case

The EPA issued a veto under the Clean Water Act to halt the controversial copper and gold mine in Southwest Alaska in January.

www.adn.com

"The governor is ignoring Alaskans and science with this lawsuit. And even more appalling, he is using public funds to prop out-of-state mining executives at the expense of Alaska's salmon and all the people who rely on them. It's anti-Alaskan." Nelli Williams, Trout Unlimited Alaska

62% of Alaskans oppose Pebble Mine. To think there are still people that believe politicians are more concerned with their constituents than lobbyist $$$.

Yeah, that's going to continue to be a battle until we get a governor with a different mindset. I like Mike, both personally and politically, but I completely split ways with him on this Pebble debacle. However, a ruling by the Supreme might finally end the debate.

 

[william schmaltz]

Yeah, that's going to continue to be a battle until we get a governor with a different mindset. I like Mike, both personally and politically, but I completely split ways with him on this Pebble debacle. However, a ruling by the Supreme might finally end the debate.

I agree, I like Mike as a person and voted for him. He goes to our church, attends the fundraisers, and was even there to congratulate us at our kid's baptisms. It's the conundrum we kinda live in as conservative-leaning hunters/conservationists.

 

[Marbles]

For those still following along.

State of Alaska sues EPA over Pebble mine veto, asks Supreme Court to take up the case

The EPA issued a veto under the Clean Water Act to halt the controversial copper and gold mine in Southwest Alaska in January.

www.adn.com

"The governor is ignoring Alaskans and science with this lawsuit. And even more appalling, he is using public funds to prop out-of-state mining executives at the expense of Alaska's salmon and all the people who rely on them. It's anti-Alaskan." Nelli Williams, Trout Unlimited Alaska

62% of Alaskans oppose Pebble Mine. To think there are still people that believe politicians are more concerned with their constituents than lobbyist $$$.

The fact that he claims the lawsuit is to protect Alaska from federal interference while ignoring Alaskans is rather ironic.

 

[z987k]

For those still following along.

State of Alaska sues EPA over Pebble mine veto, asks Supreme Court to take up the case

The EPA issued a veto under the Clean Water Act to halt the controversial copper and gold mine in Southwest Alaska in January.

www.adn.com

"The governor is ignoring Alaskans and science with this lawsuit. And even more appalling, he is using public funds to prop out-of-state mining executives at the expense of Alaska's salmon and all the people who rely on them. It's anti-Alaskan." Nelli Williams, Trout Unlimited Alaska

62% of Alaskans oppose Pebble Mine. To think there are still people that believe politicians are more concerned with their constituents than lobbyist $$$.

He's also super pro-trawler. Which is why I cannot in any way support him We can't get that fixed until he's gone or our federal representation manages to outlaw it.

The fact that he claims the lawsuit is to protect Alaska from federal interference while ignoring Alaskans is rather ironic.

I mean, I'd like the feds to GTFO of Alaska, they mismanage everything they touch to a much greater degree than the state does. But I also want Pebble mine gone, which aside from this poor excuse of a conservative governor, would happen at a local level as it doesn't have the support locally either.

 

[Mykolaivka887]

The fact that he claims the lawsuit is to protect Alaska from federal interference while ignoring Alaskans is rather ironic.

Ain't it though?

 

[KingGus]

At the end of the day, Pebble is just different from any other mining project by leaps and bounds. The containment pond alone would be 10 square miles and hold up to 10 billion tons of waste that will require treatment in perpetuity. All while sitting in extremely close proximity to two faults that have produced earthquakes up to 7.9 M within the last couple of decades.

Hey mate, can you share your source for the 7.9 earthquakes?

 

[JohnB]

Ugh. As soon as I saw this thread bumped back up I knew it was no good.