Army Corps says no to massive gold mine proposed near Bristol Bay in Alaska

[dla]

Wrong, there are so many salmon jobs in the region, anybody who wants a job has one. These “jobs” the mine we’re going g to create were nothing but low level grunt gigs that nobody wants anyways. That mine could easily destroy the fishery and THAT would cause serious job losses, the canneries, fishermen etc.

Fisheries jobs are low-level grunt jobs.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

Fisheries jobs are low-level grunt jobs.

Some are for sure. Others pay pretty damn well.

The canaries full of eastern european creeps certainly are, boats, tenders, fish and game, management positions, heavy equipment operators, medical staff etc do pretty good. I've know lots of guys who cleared well over 100k in half a year and got the rest of the year off, hell, my buddy owns a few fishing boats, he made close to 300k in 6 weeks.

 

[Billinsd]

You probably got stuck on the word "think".
There are always two sides to every issue. Have you seen "fair and balanced" in this thread?

Nope

 

[manitou1]

Make it a national park! Fixed!

 

[Marbles]

Fisheries jobs are low-level grunt jobs.

LOL. So the resort owner with three cabins, four boats, a private dock, and 3 boat captains who work for him is a low-level grunt? The commercial fishing captain who operates his own $500K boat and employs three crew members is a low-level grunt? I know fisherman who pull in more in a year than petroleum engineers, petroleum engineers are the highest payed engineering profession (at least last I checked), so I guess you would consider mine workers low-level grunts as well. In which case the sheer number of fishing jobs in Bristol Bay out weigh the few low-level grunt (your definition, not mine) jobs this mine would produce.

Bristol Bay is tied to both tourism and fishing, two of Alaska's top three industries. The other is oil, not mining. Both fishing and tourism do a decent job of churning money back into the local economy as well.

Sometimes the other side of a story is a shady thief playing mind games. The company behind Pebble Mine has given very few reasons to give them the benefit of the doubt; however, they have given plenty of reasons to doubt them. I have a really hard time trusting the opinion of someone who tries to place Alaska's entire fishing industry in the category of McDonalds workers as that shows a profound ignorance of facts on the ground.

 

[dla]

LOL. So the resort owner with three cabins, four boats, a private dock, and 3 boat captains who work for him is a low-level grunt? The commercial fishing captain who operates his own $500K boat and employs three crew members is a low-level grunt? I know fisherman who pull in more in a year than petroleum engineers, petroleum engineers are the highest payed engineering profession (at least last I checked), so I guess you would consider mine workers low-level grunts as well. In which case the sheer number of fishing jobs in Bristol Bay out weigh the few low-level grunt (your definition, not mine) jobs this mine would produce.

Bristol Bay is tied to both tourism and fishing, two of Alaska's top three industries. The other is oil, not mining. Both fishing and tourism do a decent job of churning money back into the local economy as well.

Sometimes the other side of a story is a shady thief playing mind games. The company behind Pebble Mine has given very few reasons to give them the benefit of the doubt; however, they have given plenty of reasons to doubt them. I have a really hard time trusting the opinion of someone who tries to place Alaska's entire fishing industry in the category of McDonalds workers as that shows a profound ignorance of facts on the ground.

All industries are a pyramid of jobs - lots on the bottom and few at the top. You'd do well to remember that.
Mining is just one more extraction industry. Well understood and allowed to operate nearly everywhere. Usually only blocked by Preservationists (note I didn't say Conservationists). Since I'm not trying to raise a family in AK (I'm in Idaho), I don't believe it right to impose my view. Just as it would be hypocritical of me to rail against burning rainforest for subsistence farming whilst I stuff a Snickers into my pie hole.

 

[OXN939]

LOL. So the resort owner with three cabins, four boats, a private dock, and 3 boat captains who work for him is a low-level grunt? The commercial fishing captain who operates his own $500K boat and employs three crew members is a low-level grunt?

Yeah dude! If you were a *real* Alaskan, who cared about jobs, you'd support a foreign owned semi-bankrupt company that has since created one of the biggest political scandals in the state's recent history by trying to bribe politicians to ignore the impending environmental disaster they were about to create. Again, it's not like Alaska's constitution explicitly outlines the state's responsibility to keep natural resources sustainable... or anything.

Since, in dude man's own words, he is more concerned with the way things go in Idaho... maybe he should petition Northern Dynasty to put their mine right outside of the Frank on the Salmon River. I hear they're looking for a spot now. Just think of the jobs.

 

[AK Troutbum]

Since I'm not trying to raise a family in AK (I'm in Idaho), I don't believe it right to impose my view. Just as it would be hypocritical of me to rail against burning rainforest for subsistence farming whilst I stuff a Snickers into my pie hole.

It seems to me, that’s exactly what you did in post #9, is it not?


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[dla]

It seems to me, that’s exactly what you did in post #9, is it not?


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No, I did not.
I lamented the lack of jobs and economic opportunity due to pressure from outside interests.
So what was the purpose of your post anyway?

 

[Conrad101st]

Just as it would be hypocritical of me to rail against burning rainforest for subsistence farming whilst I stuff a Snickers into my pie hole.

I totally disagree respectfully. I feel quite comfortable sitting in my chair eating ice cream, and thinking that not all human lives are worth the damage they create to sustain themselves. Why should some knucklehead anywhere get to wipe out a valuable resource or endangered species so he can support three more children.

I would gladly have less Africans in order to save lion & elephant habitat.

I would gladly have less Indians to save tigers.

Same for more Brazilians and their destruction of the rain forest.

Don’t get me started on the Chinese.

it’s not hypocritical. We have a ranch and we leave about 1400 acres wild and uncultivated. It’s gnarly woods. We could bulldoze every damn tree to run more cows but don’t. Profit and human expansion is not the only goal in life. In fact I don’t have kids b/c I never felt the urge to add to the world’s burden.

 

[HighUintas]

Yeah, and of course Northern Dynasty's CEO states that he vows to appeal it. Like what's already been stated, I also don't necessarily think that this is the final nail in the coffin, but it's definitely a step in the right direction. One thing that kind of pisses me off is that our congressman Don Young is quoted as saying that he is "disappointed that the process doesn't allow sufficient input from Alaskans", and "now there must be a consideration of how the feds will compensate our state for the loss of economic potential. My question to Don Young is, have you not listened to the Alaskans overwhelming anti-Pebble sentiment over the last three decades, and exactly how do you think that the federal government should compensate the state of Alaska when the fact is, Northern Dynasty is a Canadian owned company that would more than likely only employ a handful of local Alaskans? Also, I wonder exactly how much money Don thinks that this Canadian owned mining company was going to bring to the state of Alaska, and exactly how much money and livelihoods would be lost with the destruction of the worlds largest Sockeye salmon fishery. I have voted for Don Young many times, but god damnit, sometimes he says some real stupid shit.

Is Don Young not the POS he seems to be in all the videos of him speaking in Congress and hearings? Specifically, in the documentary Public Trust. I get that they could be portraying him as completely evil because it was done by Patagonia, but other stuff I've looked up after watching that also made it seem like he really sucks. Not living in Alaska, I could be way off.

Not looking to pick a fight... Just curious.

 

[AK Troutbum]

Too bad. This was jobs for real people with real families who actually live in Alaska. Seems to be hampered by enviro-zealots out of state who lack skin in the game.

So this is not “imposing (or expressing), your views”? What is it exactly then?


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[AK Troutbum]

Is Don Young not the POS he seems to be in all the videos of him speaking in Congress and hearings? Specifically, in the documentary Public Trust. I get that they could be portraying him as completely evil because it was done by Patagonia, but other stuff I've looked up after watching that also made it seem like he really sucks. Not living in Alaska, I could be way off.

Not looking to pick a fight... Just curious.

He may or may not be a POS, I can’t say for sure and it would only be my opinion anyway. I don’t watch tv, so I can’t comment on any commercials, as I haven’t seen any. In so far as me voting for Young, I have voted for him a fair number of times. Some election’s I’ve felt pretty good about that decision and some I felt like I was just picking the lesser of two evils.


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[Marbles]

All industries are a pyramid of jobs - lots on the bottom and few at the top. You'd do well to remember that.
Mining is just one more extraction industry. Well understood and allowed to operate nearly everywhere. Usually only blocked by Preservationists (note I didn't say Conservationists). Since I'm not trying to raise a family in AK (I'm in Idaho), I don't believe it right to impose my view. Just as it would be hypocritical of me to rail against burning rainforest for subsistence farming whilst I stuff a Snickers into my pie hole.

You would do well to remember that reminding someone of concepts that can be seen in their writing is petty and does not strengthen your position. Tons of value added by this sentence [sarcasm].

Most of the people at the upper rungs of the fishing industry are Alaskan. The people at the upper rungs of Pebble Mine would not be.

The Bristol Bay fishery employs about 14,000 people total and generates about 1.5 billion in annual profit. Pebble mine projects the mine would generate a total (direct and indirect) of 2,000 jobs and that over a 20 year life it will make 1 billion (50 million annualized) in profit. It is pretty easy to see which one contributes the most to Alaskans (but, to be completely fair, you are correct that Pebble Mine would create jobs). The only hope the mine has is that it does not effect the fishery at all (arguing for mining being low risk), but most "real people with real families who actually live in Alaska" don't judge it worth the economic risk.

Most Conservationists routinely oppose strip mining (note I did not say Preservationist). Yeah, that really adds a lot of value to this discussion [sarcasm].

The people who live in Bristol Bay are almost universally opposed to this mine. So, the hypocrisy is you telling them that they are Preservationists killing jobs for "real people...who actually live in Alaska" and as it threatens their job, implying that they are less real and less important. Perhaps that is your argument, like Silicon Valley elites you believe ranchers and those who make their money in a more old fashioned way don't count as real; subsistence living should not exist, and everyone should just go to the supermarket for their food. Probably not, but without a lot of caveats, which you have not made, your argument could logically be extended to that position even more easily than the arguments of Pebble Mine Corp.

 

[z987k]

Make it a national park! Fixed!

No no no. The last thing we need is more federal land in Alaska. Some moron from Ohio already gets more say what goes on here than a resident due to the extremely large portion of the state being owned by the Feds.
How about we kick the BLM out. All that land can become state public trust. Convert all National parks/monuments to state and completely eliminate the Department of the Interior from our state.
Next we kick the NOAA fisheries idiots out and have local control of all the halibut/cod so there's any left in 15 years.

 

[Billinsd]

interesting this is in a conservation forum, when it's a preservation thread?
Why not have a preservation forum?

 

[dla]

interesting this is in a conservation forum, when it's a preservation thread?
Why not have a preservation forum?

A lot of Preservationists have never googled the definition.

 

[Billinsd]

A lot of Preservationists have never googled the definition.

Impose and express are seldom googled words as well.

 

[Marbles]

A lot of Preservationists have never googled the definition.

Which hairs are being split from the google definitions?

pres·er·va·tion·ist
/ˌprezərˈvāSHənəst/
noun

1. a supporter or advocate of the preservation of something, especially of historic buildings and artifacts.

con·ser·va·tion·ist
/ˌkänsərˈvāSHənəst/
noun

1. a person who advocates or acts for the protection and preservation of the environment and wildlife. "conservationist groups"

If you google preservation vs conservation you get this from the NPS (but you only said to google the definitions, so I over reach to help your cause).

"Conservation and preservation are closely linked and may indeed seem to mean the same thing. Both terms involve a degree of protection, but how that is protection is carried out is the key difference. Conservation is generally associated with the protection of natural resources, while preservation is associated with the protection of buildings, objects, and landscapes. Put simply conservation seeks the proper use of nature, while preservation seeks protection of nature from use.

"During the environmental movement of the early 20th century, two opposing factions emerged: conservationists and preservationists. Conservationists sought to regulate human use while preservationists sought to eliminate human impact altogether. " And "conservation generally follows an economic motive."

Fishing industry = human impact
Fishing industry worth 1.5 billion annually = economic motive

So, who is misusing the words as enlightenment by your preferred method (google) reveals them from on high?

But, you were right about one thing, I had never googled them as I normally turn to the Oxford English Dictionary I keep around. Webster's would be more American, but too many of the words I look up are not in the unabridged edition. But, that is to distract from the point that you were right about something. My hat is off to you, sir; for being such an astute observer of humanity. Please excuse the cap hair.

 

[AK Troutbum]

I gotta say, I find it interesting that you dla seem to have such a strong positive opinion about the Pebble mine, and yet criticize the "enviro-zealots out of state who lack skin in the game". I'm curious, where are you from, and how much skin in the game do you have? For that matter, have you or Billinsd ever even been to the area of the proposed mine site? I'm guessing not, but you've probably seen a picture of it, right? Are either one of you at all educated on the great track records that open pit mines have had all over the world, since open pit mining came into existence? Have either one of you educated yourselves about the major aspects of this mine and the environmental impacts it will have? Do you have any knowledge of the size of this mine, or how it is proposed to be built with the earthen damn, or any knowledge about seismic activity in the area of the proposed site? Oh, and when I say seismic activity, I'm talking about earthquakes. Have either one of you ever experienced a sizable earthquake, or witnessed first hand the damage a large earthquake can cause? Anyway, just curious as to how much experience, and or "skin in the game", you both have with these matters.