Arrow for short draw, 80lb

[Squatch'n Around]

I'm on the hunt for an arrow that I can get at least 15% FOC without going over roughly 485g due to substantial speed loss, I'd like to stay at 285fps+. My current Axis 300's are 470g with only 11% FOC, I have the front ends built up with Iron Will components. Everyone has their opinions on FOC, I really don't care to hear yours, I'm looking for what I'm looking for. I look at arrow charts, but from what I've learned, they don't mean a damn thing. A nice guy from BE told me that the only arrow from them that I should look at are the Spartans, you wouldn't know that by looking at their arrow chart. When looking at Easton's arrow chart, they don't even list arrows that are compatible with my setup, or most 80lb setups, you have to add 5lbs for brace heights under 6.5", add 5lbs if the bows IBO rating is over 340fps, which puts my setup at 90lbs, and the chart doesn't go there. If I could get in touch with a human at Easton I'd like to ask them if I can shoot the A/C Pro Comps. And on a side note, I've always bare shaft tuned, but when you add roughly 45g to the back of an arrow with vanes and a wrap, does this not change the spine and thus render the bare shaft tuning a waste of time? Thanks and sorry for the long winded post, I'm losing my f'ing mind over here.

Draw 27.5"
Arrow 26.5"

 

[danwattsmessick]

Did I miss what your "short draw" actually is?

How long is your current arrow?

I shoot GoldTip personally, and looking through their products a 26.75" XT Hunter shooting a 125 grain head along with a 50 grain brass FACT weight, three blazer vanes, and a bohning double-lock nock gets you a 499 grain arrow with roughly 14.8" FOC.

If you can shoot a shorter arrow, even better. Increases the stiffness slightly and increases your FOC as well. If you're looking to increase FOC, I don't recommend a wrap even though I like the benefit of visibility. Its a trade off.

I think we are missing some ingredients for your setup if you want an accurate answer.

 

[Squatch'n Around]

Did I miss what your "short draw" actually is?

How long is your current arrow?

I shoot GoldTip personally, and looking through their products a 26.75" XT Hunter shooting a 125 grain head along with a 50 grain brass FACT weight, three blazer vanes, and a bohning double-lock nock gets you a 499 grain arrow with roughly 14.8" FOC.

If you can shoot a shorter arrow, even better. Increases the stiffness slightly and increases your FOC as well. If you're looking to increase FOC, I don't recommend a wrap even though I like the benefit of visibility. Its a trade off.

I think we are missing some ingredients for your setup if you want an accurate answer.

I saw that I forgot to post those stats, sorry about that, added below in OP. I have considered eliminating the wrap, but I can't help but think that 9g would do much to FOC, am I wrong on that?

 

[Zac]

First you are correct about the weight in the back and bare shaft tuning. There is a threshold there. You can use wraps to add weight to the back. Or just cut the large part of the vane and leave the base intact. I found with Max Stealths the difference between 3 vanes and the bareshaft was comparable. However the 4th vane tipped it completely over the edge. I like to get a perfect hole with a bare shaft then begin tuning your fletched shaft.
You should be able to stack FOC very easily due to your short arrow length. Victory is really your best option. Brent from Valkyrie has found that he can drop an entire spine with the Vaps compared to the Black Eagles. Also this will be very obtainable for you due to having such a short arrow. You could probably pile a ton of weight on a 300, or a 250 spine VAP and still stay under or around 500 grains. It would be best to contact someone like Brent due to the outdated spine charts you already referenced. Imo Valkyrie is the only way to go for heavy FOC with a micro. Most other systems end up pushing 600 grains with similar percentages. For reference I had a 28.5 CTC 250 VAP with 250 in the front. 20 percent FOC and 550 grains out of a 83 lb Hoyt Defiant.

 

[Squatch'n Around]

First you are correct about the weight in the back and bare shaft tuning. There is a threshold there. You can use wraps to add weight to the back. Or just cut the large part of the vane and leave the base intact. I found with Max Stealths the difference between 3 vanes and the bareshaft was comparable. However the 4th vane tipped it completely over the edge. I like to get a perfect hole with a bare shaft then begin tuning your fletched shaft.
You should be able to stack FOC very easily due to your short arrow length. Victory is really your best option. Brent from Valkyrie has found that he can drop an entire spine with the Vaps compared to the Black Eagles. Also this will be very obtainable for you due to having such a short arrow. You could probably pile a ton of weight on a 300, or a 250 spine VAP and still stay under or around 500 grains. It would be best to contact someone like Brent due to the outdated spine charts you already referenced. Imo Valkyrie is the only way to go for heavy FOC with a micro. Most other systems end up pushing 600 grains with similar percentages. For reference I had a 28.5 CTC 250 VAP with 250 in the front. 20 percent FOC and 550 grains out of a 83 lb Hoyt Defiant.

I was looking at VAPs, I've heard so many mixed reviews on them, but I think I can build up the front just as easily with Iron Will components without being pigeon held to a specific broadhead like with the Valkryie system, unless I don't understand it properly. Since the Max Stealths weigh about the same as a wrap, do you think that the 4th fletch minus the wrap wouldn't have tipped it? I'm about to experiment without the wrap, and only 3 fletch, which would cut the weight by 18g, and I could add a heavier insert or collar. I just don't know what kind of offset I'd need to achieve at least 15%, there has to be a formula that can be used to predict the balance point on an arrow once you input stats with certain weights.

 

[Zac]

Yeah you can use an online calculator like the one from Goldtip. You can only use IW components of you use the RIP TKO. It's a .204 that I know nothing about. If you went with the VAP you'd have to use Deep 6.
As far as vane weight. You want as little as possible for conversion. 3 Blazers will not change the tune significantly from a bare shaft. However they still will impact differently. This is why I start with a bare shaft, and end with a fletched. I use to shoot my bare shaft through paper at 40 yards until I had a perfect hole. I thought this would be perfect, yet it was still different than my fletched arrow 21 feet out of the bow. They are just not going to act the same.

 

[Billy Goat]

A 300 spine BE Carnivore will easily do what you are looking for. 50-100 grain inserts and 100-150 grain heads depending on what exactly your wanting for a broadhead. Point being 200 grains up front in total. GT Ultra-light will also work,

I use a few wraps of electrical tape on the back of shafts. I cut lengths until I find the length that weighs the same as my fletching setup, the. Wrap that on angle in the same area that the fletching will go.

 

[5MilesBack]

There are all kinds of arrows compatible with your setup. Just about any .300 spine arrow will work or even some lighter weight 250's. The problem though is trying to find that combination you've handcuffed yourself into.........."max 485gr and 15% FOC".

Find a lighter weight 300 or 250 and add weight to the front. That will keep you under 485gr and also give you your magic number of 15% FOC or better.

Personally, FOC never even enters my mind when I'm building my arrows, and most all of them are over 500gr and 30" carbon to carbon with a 33" draw. I shoot 300's, 250's, and 200's.

Your 27.5" draw at 80lbs equates to the same energy as a 30" draw shooting your bow at 67.5lbs.

 

[Squatch'n Around]

There are all kinds of arrows compatible with your setup. Just about any .300 spine arrow will work or even some lighter weight 250's. The problem though is trying to find that combination you've handcuffed yourself into.........."max 485gr and 15% FOC".

Find a lighter weight 300 or 250 and add weight to the front. That will keep you under 485gr and also give you your magic number of 15% FOC or better.

Personally, FOC never even enters my mind when I'm building my arrows, and most all of them are over 500gr and 30" carbon to carbon with a 33" draw. I shoot 300's, 250's, and 200's.

Your 27.5" draw at 80lbs equates to the same energy as a 30" draw shooting your bow at 67.5lbs.

If I had a 30" draw my arrows would likely weigh closer to or over 600g, I can't imagine how you'd be able to build a respectable hunting arrow under 500g at that draw, "almost all of them are over 500g", I'd assume then that you're using a lighter arrow? And if you are, then I guarantee that your FOC is at least 15% assuming you're using a 100g head and at the least a 40g insert, which means your arrows tipped with broadheads probably fly like champs, thus leading you to never look into FOC. lol Having a short draw, aside from it being more forgiving in regards to poor form, really sucks out loud when it comes down to just about everything else. What was the formula you used to determine the energy? And I'd much rather pull 67.5lbs rather than 80lbs, for the sake of my shoulder, I am jealous of you long draw folks for that, it'd be nice if a bow company would engineer some cams for us short ppl.

 

[5MilesBack]

If I had a 30" draw my arrows would likely weigh closer to or over 600g, I can't imagine how you'd be able to build a respectable hunting arrow under 500g at that draw, "almost all of them are over 500g", I'd assume then that you're using a lighter arrow?

My BE Spartan 250's come in at 495gr. My Easton ACC's come in at 470gr. And my Victory HV1 300's come in at 385gr. Everything else is over 500gr and those shafts weigh between 10.7gpi and 11.6gpi. Pretty sure most of my arrows are between 9% and 12.5% and I BH tune at 60 yards. My bow is also set at 75lb draw.

 

[Jimbob]

If you want to play with arrow set-ups then give the software a try. You can play with every variable and arrow type and see how they match up with your bow.

Arrow Software

 

[Billy Goat]

If I had a 30" draw my arrows would likely weigh closer to or over 600g, I can't imagine how you'd be able to build a respectable hunting arrow under 500g at that draw, "almost all of them are over 500g", I'd assume then that you're using a lighter arrow? And if you are, then I guarantee that your FOC is at least 15% assuming you're using a 100g head and at the least a 40g insert, which means your arrows tipped with broadheads probably fly like champs, thus leading you to never look into FOC. lol Having a short draw, aside from it being more forgiving in regards to poor form, really sucks out loud when it comes down to just about everything else. What was the formula you used to determine the energy? And I'd much rather pull 67.5lbs rather than 80lbs, for the sake of my shoulder, I am jealous of you long draw folks for that, it'd be nice if a bow company would engineer some cams for us short ppl.

As your arrow gets longer it's harder to have a higher % foc. Takes more weight out front, and a heavier spine. Way easier to get high foc with shorter shafts than longer.

100 grain head and 40 grain insert is likely only 10% on many 300 spine shafts @ 30"+ inches.

 

[Reburn]

As your arrow gets longer it's harder to have a higher % foc. Takes more weight out front, and a heavier spine. Way easier to get high foc with shorter shafts than longer.

100 grain head and 40 grain insert is likely only 10% on many 300 spine shafts @ 30"+ inches.

Its hard to get a long arrow foc up and stay at the 500 grain mark.

9.5% foc on mine at 29.5" 9.3 gpi shafts. 100+50 insert. If i increase to a 125 Im underspined and have to drop to a 250. Lowered it myseft my adding lighted nocks and wraps even though the wraps give me some stiffness back.

my wifes arrows at 24.5" with 100 grain points are like at 16% foc by accident.

 

[Squatch'n Around]

As your arrow gets longer it's harder to have a higher % foc. Takes more weight out front, and a heavier spine. Way easier to get high foc with shorter shafts than longer.

100 grain head and 40 grain insert is likely only 10% on many 300 spine shafts @ 30"+ inches.

You’re describing my issue, except I don’t get the full power stroke of the cams at 27.5, meaning that I lose out on 20-30fps out of the gate. A 30” draw can shoot heavier arrows faster, with less poundage, than I can with more poundage, offering more room to beef up the front without sacrificing reasonable speed. You can put 175g on the front end of an arrow that weighs 10.7gpi, use a 4 fletch with AAE Max Stealth vanes, and still only be at roughly 524g, which would still let a 30” draw modern bow at 70lbs send that arrow over 300fps down range, what more could you want? I don’t know what FOC you’d get from that, but you still have plenty of room to add more weight up front before your speed started dipping into the 280’s which is where I’ll be. The struggle is real for SD shooters in this arena.

 

[Marble]

Just my .02...I think you've given yourself a few potential solutions but they dont fit into your parameters. Just keep an open mind and you might find that unicorn.

Would you be happy with an extremely accurate arrow that tunes great and is a little slower than 285? I think there are several options. Just finding the right combo.

You can get on a balistic calculator and get pretty accurate numbers as to how much you'll gain and lose with arrow length and or total weight changes.

I dont get caught up on FOC, I do like a heavy arrows with a bunch of weight up front. But that's more for overall arrow weight. It's what has worked for me in the past.

You’re describing my issue, except I don’t get the full power stroke of the cams at 27.5, meaning that I lose out on 20-30fps out of the gate. A 30” draw can shoot heavier arrows faster, with less poundage, than I can with more poundage, offering more room to beef up the front without sacrificing reasonable speed. You can put 175g on the front end of an arrow that weighs 10.7gpi, use a 4 fletch with AAE Max Stealth vanes, and still only be at roughly 524g, which would still let a 30” draw modern bow at 70lbs send that arrow over 300fps down range, what more could you want? I don’t know what FOC you’d get from that, but you still have plenty of room to add more weight up front before your speed started dipping into the 280’s which is where I’ll be. The struggle is real for SD shooters in this arena.

 

[Face8780]

I shoot an APA mamba 28 at 26.5 inches on draw length. 80 pounds. I’m shooting the new gold tip airstrikes at 27.5 inches. They weigh 427 grains with 100 grain field tip. They come in at 15% foc and the bow is coming in at 299-301FPS over my chrono.

 

[Hogyotedeer]

Now I’m a 26.5 Draw. But I shoot 65 to 70lbs. But if your building a hunting arrow then mass is what you look at. And the lower the draw weight the more mass is needed.
A bad tune is no excuse for a heavier arrow.

 

[Billy Goat]

You’re describing my issue, except I don’t get the full power stroke of the cams at 27.5, meaning that I lose out on 20-30fps out of the gate. A 30” draw can shoot heavier arrows faster, with less poundage, than I can with more poundage, offering more room to beef up the front without sacrificing reasonable speed. You can put 175g on the front end of an arrow that weighs 10.7gpi, use a 4 fletch with AAE Max Stealth vanes, and still only be at roughly 524g, which would still let a 30” draw modern bow at 70lbs send that arrow over 300fps down range, what more could you want? I don’t know what FOC you’d get from that, but you still have plenty of room to add more weight up front before your speed started dipping into the 280’s which is where I’ll be. The struggle is real for SD shooters in this arena.

I know exactly where you are at. I'm shooting 28.5" now. If shooting 3d you might want the speed, I wouldn't be worried about the foc for that, for hunting I'd just want a durable arrow. I chased speed for awhile and I still like being over 285 for a western hunting arrow, but everything gets more difficult.

I think you will find it's not necessary to have what your looking for. But like I said several arrows out there that will give you what you want. Light weight shaft with heavy front. Don't know why Black Eagle didn't bring up the Carnivore shaft, I have been very pleased with it. It's available in a .001 shaft direct from them. Also pleased with the Gold Tip Ultralight Pro. Both of those shafts can easily work for what you are looking for. Depending on what insert you are using the length of that insert is going to stiffen your spine even more. If you are using a 26"-26.5" shaft I'd think it's a decent chance you can get a 340-350 spine to work @ 80#. Definitely a 300. Many of these inserts effectively take 2" of shaft out of the equation.

When looking at the charts everything is in steps. The chart might not go to 90# but if you add an inch to your arrow you will see it takes you up a line on the chart in terms of weight. You can do a little math to the get where you need to be. The charts are also only starting points.