Arrow help- long draw looking to explore better arrow and FOC

JNDEER

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set up:
Hoyt carbon defiant. 70# 30". (69.86# on the scale)

Had shot: maxima hunter 450 cut to 29", 100gr head and killed lots of critters with it.

Currently shoot: stayed with CE because of the success with hunters and wanted to try the .204 stuff and went with the Red SD 450 cut to 28 5/8 with CE half out insert and CE nocks and 100gr head coming out at 520gr with 4 fletch Q2i fusion XII. FOC right around 10%.

Because the red sd 450 are hard to find I wanted to look into other arrows. During this time I figured I would look also into seeing if I can build a better shooting more reliable arrow than the CE arrows. Instead of trying a bunch of different arrows I figured I would see what you guys would recommend if I am looking for the following:
1- FOC in the 14-16 range for no reason other then to see if it actually improves my groups.
2- 480-520 gr with 4 fletch Q2i fusion xII vanes and 100gr head
3- want a .001 straight arrow and better weight tolerance for the batch. A good strong hunting arrow for north american game.

I purchased AA and have been toying with it, but seems like I either cannot get that 15% FOC or I need a 31" arrow for a 30"DL. I am not oppose to this, but was hoping to keep my total arrow length (tip of arrow after insert installed to throat of the nock) around the 29-30" range.

Hoping we have some long DL guys or people who just love to tinker with arrows and could make a good recommendation for me.
 

SDHNTR

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What’s up buddy. Longer arrows can create a problem because concentricity run out occurs primarily on the ends of the shafts and you can’t cut much off.

I briefly shot the old CE Maxima hunters, but didn’t like how brittle they were. Went back to gold tip and I’ve been there ever since. I shoot the Velocity Pro versions, because I wanted a lighter overall shaft that I could then front load to bring up overall weight, resulting in a higher foc. Theres the Hunter Pro models too, the “Pro” indicating tighter tolerance for straightness. I also really like the gold tip weight system. Super easy to use. I shoot a .300 spine cut off both ends (that concentricity thing) with a 50 gr insert weight and a 100 gr head. Total arrow weight is 450 gr and foc is exactly in the range you’re looking for. I have no complaints and no plans to make any changes.
 
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JNDEER

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Hey SD-
Thanks for the quick feedback. Man if you felt the hunters were brittle then those GT VP must be like concrete cause I have killed a pile of stuff with those old hunters.

Just ran those numbers and if i change my head to a 125, cut the arrow (c to c) to 28.5 and use a half out 75gr. head hope to get total arrow length closer to that 29ish mark i can get a FOC of 17 and 490 grain.

Thanks- I will check into these and the components to make sure it will all work.

The reason for arrow weight being soo high is to keep the arrow quiet. I have done a crazy amount of testing and found that optimal arrow weight for it being quiet is in that range and actually 510-520 are the best. I want an arrow that I can also use in HI for those cagey axis.
 

SDHNTR

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Hey SD-
Thanks for the quick feedback. Man if you felt the hunters were brittle then those GT VP must be like concrete cause I have killed a pile of stuff with those old hunters.

Just ran those numbers and if i change my head to a 125, cut the arrow (c to c) to 28.5 and use a half out 75gr. head hope to get total arrow length closer to that 29ish mark i can get a FOC of 17 and 490 grain.

Thanks- I will check into these and the components to make sure it will all work.

The reason for arrow weight being soo high is to keep the arrow quiet. I have done a crazy amount of testing and found that optimal arrow weight for it being quiet is in that range and actually 510-520 are the best. I want an arrow that I can also use in HI for those cagey axis.
That much weight up front will likely need a .250 spine. I hear ya on quiet. When I went from 420 to 450gr there was a noticeable decrease in shot noise.
 
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JNDEER

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That much weight up front will likely need a .250 spine. I hear ya on quiet. When I went from 420 to 450gr there was a noticeable decrease in shot noise.
not that i am a pro using AA as i have only been playing with it for a while- it says the 300 is fine with 200 up front. Just wish this was a .204 arrow.

Yep. extensive testing really shows that .204 is quieter than .246. Then weight and vane configuration comes into play after that.
 

SDHNTR

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Methinks AA, and a lot of spine charts, use old data from back when bows has less aggressive cams. Gotta find a good chart that accounts for a modern bow. When in doubt or in between, go stiffer. Hard to be too stiff with a release. Easy to be not stiff enough (insert joke).
 
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JNDEER

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Methinks AA, and a lot of spine charts, use old data from back when bows has less aggressive cams. Gotta find a good chart that accounts for a modern bow. When in doubt or in between, go stiffer. Hard to be too stiff with a release. Easy to be not stiff enough (insert joke).
That could be- which is why I am asking the pro's. I will run some arrows in 250 and see what I can come up with.
 

Mighty Mouse

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A 300 spine Easton 5mm Axis cut to 28.5" with 100 gr head and 75 gr brass HIT would meet your TAW and FOC targets with nearly "optimal" spine according to qSpine/OT2Go.

Bow inputs: 331 fps IBO, 70# DW, 30" DL, 31" ATA, 7" BH, 80% LO
Arrow inputs: 28.5" C2C, 100 gr head, 75 gr insert, 9 gr nock, 4 vanes at 5.8 gr/ea (assumed 2.1" Fusion X-II)
Screenshot_20220806-225140_qSpine.jpg
 
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JNDEER

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A 300 spine Easton 5mm Axis cut to 28.5" with 100 gr head and 75 gr brass HIT would meet your TAW and FOC targets with nearly "optimal" spine according to qSpine/OT2Go.

Bow inputs: 331 fps IBO, 70# DW, 30" DL, 31" ATA, 7" BH, 80% LO
Arrow inputs: 28.5" C2C, 100 gr head, 75 gr insert, 9 gr nock, 4 vanes at 5.8 gr/ea (assumed 2.1" Fusion X-II)
View attachment 436838
Thanks MM,

When I run that on AA its gives me a 13 FOC and the dial is in the middle of the yellow. I fear with a long draw and fixed BH anything remotely week could be bad? I will toy around with that idea, maybe i can pick up a few of these arrows cheaper to play with. I would have to use Easton half/out 75gr head though to get the total arrow length closer to 29.5 because anything under 29 is just too close to my arrow rest for my liking.

Then the question becomes match grade axis or??
 

5MilesBack

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The Axis will work, or you can try some Victory RIP TKO Elites. I'm shooting the 250's at 30" carbon to carbon with 75gr brass HIT's and 125's, Bohning A nocks, and four 2.1" Q2i Fusion Xii vanes........500gr. I shoot at 32 1/2+ draw.

But I'll tell you right now, the added FOC won't improve accuracy. Some of the best arrows I've ever shot were those older CX Maxima Hunter 350's at 445gr.
 

Marble

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The point weight will not help as much as shooting lower profile vanes and smaller diameter arrows.

I would concentrate more on getting the arrows built and shooting like lasers. I don't beleive two 500 grain arrows, one with 10% foc and the other with 17% show any difference in your hunting/ shooting success. Just my opinion.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
 
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JNDEER

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The point weight will not help as much as shooting lower profile vanes and smaller diameter arrows.

I would concentrate more on getting the arrows built and shooting like lasers. I don't beleive two 500 grain arrows, one with 10% foc and the other with 17% show any difference in your hunting/ shooting success. Just my opinion.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
Besides a small arrow (.204- don’t want to shot the micro stuff) and lower vanes (best two quietest vanes that still shoot my BH well are the Q2i and the hybrid 26 vanes)…

how would I ensure the arrows are darts? X amount of point weight to help guide the shaft straight? More of an optimal spine or a stiff spine? Considering all bow components and the shooter are spot on.

I have no idea on the FOC - figured I would pick one good highly recommended arrow to test and if I was going to do that figured a higher FOC surely wouldn’t hurt me??
 
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JNDEER

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The Axis will work, or you can try some Victory RIP TKO Elites. I'm shooting the 250's at 30" carbon to carbon with 75gr brass HIT's and 125's, Bohning A nocks, and four 2.1" Q2i Fusion Xii vanes........500gr. I shoot at 32 1/2+ draw.

But I'll tell you right now, the added FOC won't improve accuracy. Some of the best arrows I've ever shot were those older CX Maxima Hunter 350's at 445gr.
Thanks for chiming. I know our DL are not the same- but a lot of the comments you have posted I usually find spot on with my experiences to. The hunters were good arrows for me as well and I have also found the Q2i in 4 fletch to work well with my BH and are in fact the quietest vane configuration I have found.

Think the question would be if FOC won’t improve it- and I want to just buy and test- build one arrow with the other requirements… what arrow would you pick?

The RIP TKO (which seems to be a heavy favorite of most)- I could cut to 29.5 and find a 100gr HIT with my 100gr bh to get to 500gr and it appears to be too stiff- but not too far off AA chart. Could also use an ethics static outsert system without the collar to get a 95 or 110 insert.
 

SDHNTR

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My experience tells me that some additional FOC helps buck wind. I’ve settled in that 14-15% range. On a compound, I think much more than that passes the point of diminishing returns.
 
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