Arrow rotational energy

[wapitibob]

You can see an arrow spin one way out of the bow, then reverse direction, easily by shooting in a target. Mine reverse from the fletch at about 7 feet.

 

[Brendan]

Fletching against the natural rotation of the arrow.

That probably would cause an incredibly small loss of energy that would be small enough we couldn't measure it. Reason being, is you're ever so slightly delaying an arrow fully stabilizing itself.

But look at it this way. I listened to a discussion with Levi Morgan talking about this, and his comment was he couldn't see a difference on target fletching with or against natural rotation and he's arguably the best archer on the planet.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Interesting. I wonder if the speed has anything to do with it. 208 fps is pretty slow. Maybe the increased speed, creates more drag on the fletching and spins it fletching direction sooner in my case.

I agree. Increased speed would increase the amount of torque applied by the fletching on the arrow and would cause rotation reversal to occur sooner.

 

[N2TRKYS]

That probably would cause an incredibly small loss of energy that would be small enough we couldn't measure it. Reason being, is you're ever so slightly delaying an arrow fully stabilizing itself.

But look at it this way. I listened to a discussion with Levi Morgan talking about this, and his comment was he couldn't see a difference on target fletching with or against natural rotation and he's arguably the best archer on the planet.

What he does or doesn’t do doesn’t interest me at all.

Personally, I think all this arrow tuning stuff is a bunch of crap anyway. However, some thinks it makes a huge difference.

If changing the rotation of an arrow in flight has little to no effect on accuracy, then it’s hard to prove that the other stuff matters that much either.

 

[Billy Goat]

What he does or doesn’t do doesn’t interest me at all.

Personally, I think all this arrow tuning stuff is a bunch of crap anyway. However, some thinks it makes a huge difference.

If changing the rotation of an arrow in flight has little to no effect on accuracy, then it’s hard to prove that the other stuff matters that much either.

Well where does the rotation of the arrow have an effect? It needs to spin to stabilize, think it matters much what direction or how fast? As long as you have enough drag on the back of the arrow to counter the broadheads that's what is important. Rate doesn't seem to be a big deal at all.


Tuning is very important, try shooting some arrows without doing it.


We aren't writing the rules on this. Trial and error is what has demonstrated what's important.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Personally, I think all this arrow tuning stuff is a bunch of crap anyway. However, some thinks it makes a huge difference.

If changing the rotation of an arrow in flight has little to no effect on accuracy, then it’s hard to prove that the other stuff matters that much either.

For hunting purposes, the end goal of most forms of tuning isn't accuracy per se, it's getting broadheads and field points to hit the same spot. It's possible to shoot accurately with an out-of-tune bow, but you probably won't be able to get broadheads (especially fixed blade) and field points to both hit behind the pin with an out-of-tune bow. You can prove the efficacy (or lack thereof) of tuning to yourself pretty easily by playing around with your rest position, sighting in with field points, then seeing where your broadheads land.

Some tuning techniques are undoubtedly more impactful than others. Based on some personal experimentation, I concluded that fletching to complement natural arrow rotation doesn't have a noticeable benefit. But I still go through the process of adjusting cam timing, cam lean/shim position, nocking point position, and rest elevation/windage to get a good paper tune and bareshaft tune any time I'm setting up a new bow or changing my arrow configuration.

Edit: I overlooked the fact that you specifically said "arrow tuning." I tend to agree that tuning adjustments made to the bow are much more important than any "tuning" done to the arrow.

 

[N2TRKYS]

Well where does the rotation of the arrow have an effect? It needs to spin to stabilize, think it matters much what direction or how fast? As long as you have enough drag on the back of the arrow to counter the broadheads that's what is important. Rate doesn't seem to be a big deal at all.


Tuning is very important, try shooting some arrows without doing it.


We aren't writing the rules on this. Trial and error is what has demonstrated what's important.

I’ve never tuned arrows before. After hearing about the natural rotation of the arrow, I’ve played around with it. Honestly, it’s proven to me the myth.

I’ve never had problems with my broadheads hitting with my field points.

 

[Brendan]

What he does or doesn’t do doesn’t interest me at all.

Personally, I think all this arrow tuning stuff is a bunch of crap anyway. However, some thinks it makes a huge difference.

If changing the rotation of an arrow in flight has little to no effect on accuracy, then it’s hard to prove that the other stuff matters that much either.

Depends what other stuff you're talking about. I don't think this matters a damn bit of difference, I think there's plenty of other things that do.

 

[Zac]

John Stallone did a YouTube series with comprehensive down range arrow velocity comparisons of fletching, offsets and helicals. It then best I ever seen. Suffice to say the difference is so negligible in down range velocity lose there is no reason not go with the most helical and offset you can get on given shaft size. The testing on the different shapes/size of fletching is very interesting also.

Very well done.

Yeah I cranked the Vane Master Pro up to 5 degrees after watching that. Jake Kaminski says you can take out the pin and get 8 degrees. He shot 8 in the Olympics.

 

[Trial153]

Yeah I cranked the Vane Master Pro up to 5 degrees after watching that. Jake Kaminski says you can take out the pin and get 8 degrees. He shot 8 in the Olympics.

I think your only limitation is the what you can get on the shaft.. I know it changed my thinking a lot. You have to be nuts not to shoot max helical/off set vs the slight loss of down range velocity. His testing and measuring were really well done. It's worth watching twice...

 

[Zac]

I think your only limitation is the what you can get on the shaft.. I know it changed my thinking a lot. You have to be nuts not to shoot max helical/off set vs the slight loss of down range velocity. His testing and measuring were really well done. It's worth watching twice...

I'm thinking about running 6 fletch Pro Max at a 5 degree for my fixed blades. Probably try that out this morning.

 

[Beendare]

I’ll probably check it one day out of curiosity.

With all the intense tuning that folks do, I figured somebody would have checked it out by now.

I've tested different fletching in the past against each other. One test was 3 blazers, one set at 2 deg offset....the other 3 blazers helical...which imparted more spin. Theoretically, there should be differences in accuracy and loss of trajectory. In the real world at 50 yds, there was no measurable difference that I could see.

Now maybe at 100 yds with a hooter shooter....but is that applicable too us as bowhunters?

_____

 

[N2TRKYS]

I've tested different fletching in the past against each other. One test was 3 blazers, one set at 2 deg offset....the other 3 blazers helical...which imparted more spin. Theoretically, there should be differences in accuracy and loss of trajectory. In the real world at 50 yds, there was no measurable difference that I could see.

Now maybe at 100 yds with a hooter shooter....but is that applicable too us as bowhunters?

_____

I was thinking more in the way of velocity loss than accuracy. Not saying saying any of it makes a difference. I just curious about it.

Most of the crap we do doesn’t make any difference. Your arrow can still wobble when you screw in your broadheads. An extra o-ring can fix that. That sure is alot easier than doing all the uber arrow tuning stuff. Lol

 

[Billy Goat]

I was thinking more in the way of velocity loss than accuracy. Not saying saying any of it makes a difference. I just curious about it.

Most of the crap we do doesn’t make any difference. Your arrow can still wobble when you screw in your broadheads. An extra o-ring can fix that. That sure is alot easier than doing all the uber arrow tuning stuff. Lol

You must be damn lucky in your arrows/broadheads. I can tell a difference in broadhead grouping from .003 to a .001 arrow. In my experience sorting is well worth it.

 

[N2TRKYS]

You must be damn lucky in your arrows/broadheads. I can tell a difference in broadhead grouping from .003 to a .001 arrow. In my experience sorting is well worth it.

I guess so. 28 years worth of lucky.

 

[Reburn]

I was thinking more in the way of velocity loss than accuracy. Not saying saying any of it makes a difference. I just curious about it.

Most of the crap we do doesn’t make any difference. Your arrow can still wobble when you screw in your broadheads. An extra o-ring can fix that. That sure is alot easier than doing all the uber arrow tuning stuff. Lol

I will respetfully disagree sir. Arrow tuning especially broadhead alignment (aka spinning true) IME has been very important with big fixed blades. I can for sure see a difference at 70 yards on fixed blades.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I will respetfully disagree sir. Arrow tuning especially broadhead alignment (aka spinning true) IME has been very important with big fixed blades. I can for sure see a difference at 70 yards on fixed blades.

A finished arrow spinning true is the goal. This has proven to be easily accomplished for me over the years without the other tuning.

If it makes one feel better and gives them confidence to go through all the other stuff, then by all means, do it.

 

[Billy Goat]

A finished arrow spinning true is the goal. This has proven to be easily accomplished for me over the years without the other tuning.

If it makes one feel better and gives them confidence to go through all the other stuff, then by all means, do it.

That's awesome. I haven't had that experience. Arrow tuning has been the one thing that has really improved my broadhead shooting over the years. Once I put steering on the front of my arrow I found things changed and I needed my ducks in a row.

 

[N2TRKYS]

That's awesome. I haven't had that experience. Arrow tuning has been the one thing that has really improved my broadhead shooting over the years. Once I put steering on the front of my arrow I found things changed and I needed my ducks in a row.

When you were having problems with your broadheads, what was your issue?

 

[Billy Goat]

When you were having problems with your broadheads, what was your issue?

Group size, getting them to hit the same area consistently. When I can hold say a 5" group at 50 yards with fieldpoints and I put broadheads on and it opens up to say 8-9" I have issue with it. Now I feel like my groups are pretty equal in size between fieldpoints and broadheads. Slightly better with fieldpoints, that's to be expected.