Arrow Setup Help

CodeMonkey

Junior Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2021
Messages
34
Hi all,

Need some help getting dialed in and maybe tweaking a few pain points I've had with my arrows.

Current set up:
Hoyt Helix Ultra
334 FPS ATA
65# Limbs (peak weight around 67# after a tune)
30'' draw

Black Eagle Rampage Arrows 300 spine
29.25'' carbon-to-carbon
Standard 51 grain halfout
125 grain head
Standard R Nock
4 Fletch AAE Hybrid 23 + wrap
Total Arrow Weight: 470ish grains

This seems to be an all-around good set up for a wide variety of game and has served me well so far. I also like the cost of the Rampage shafts, so I'm not too upset when I lose one (I'm hesitant to change shafts to something like the X Impact as a result). That said, I have two gripes with my arrows:

1. I'm not a huge fan of the standard half out. Yes, they come with the shafts, but I've had issues with them popping off and also destroying the arrow if the arrow hits anything remotely hard. The most common failure is when I make a bad shot on a 3-D target and hit the internal support. 90% of the time, this means a broken arrow. As a result, I'm looking for first hand experiences of something more durable that won't drastically change the dynamic spine of the arrow with a ton of weight. Specifically, I want to also be able to keep shooting 125 grain heads since I want to avoid having to buy new broadheads. I'm also wondering how much weight I can get away with up front. The Victory calculator and the Black Eagle chart seem to be giving me conflicting information. I'm either flirting with being underspined or can add a crap ton of weight and still be OK.
2. I don't have a ton of confidence in my fletching configuration. It seems to stabilize mechanicals just fine, but I'd like to move to something a bit larger that also has the ability to stabilize something like a Slick Trick or other larger fixed blade broadhead. I'm on the fence about just moving up to a hybrid 26 (in four fletch) but I'm worried about the arrow "parachuting" at range. I'd like something that still minimizes wind drift, but gives me a bit of forgiveness in case the bow isn't perfectly tuned.
 

Samdemarais

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2017
Messages
246
I don’t think you are underspined. I would just get iron will components and be done with it. Hard to say with fletching but a lot of people have good success with 4 fletch aae max stealth, flex fletch 360 or q2I vanes. You could cut your arrow quite a bit shorter if necessary. Tuning a bow and tuning to your arrow set up is super personal, it would be hard for anyone to give you proper advice without diagnosing your shooting form etc...
 

Kularrow

Junior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2021
Messages
44
Iron Will impact Collars will increase your FOC and only add 10 - 25 grains to your arrow. People have shot ballastic collars into concrete and the arrow remained straight.
 

Wapack

Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2021
Messages
62
When I ran those shafts I put brass HIT inserts in them with the little Easton Broadhead Collars . I found it to be an inexpensive bulletproof setup. That will stiffen your spine over the halfouts. I Think you might have some space to cut your Shafts down a bit more to stiffen things up if your fixed blade flight won’t cooperate. I’m 28.5 DL, shafts cut to 26. But I suppose that depends on your comfort zone. Your overall speed and spine will dictate what fletching /offset or helical you need to steer a given broadhead. The only way to know if your set up at your specs will parachute is to try it. That’s half the fun!
 

Zac

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2018
Messages
1,470
Location
UT
Another vote for Ironwill components. As far as parachuting goes it's a complete myth. I think Tac vanes are a good option for 4 fletch if you want to keep the weight down. I just got white 2.75 Drivers. They weigh 5.6 grains a piece.
 

Wapack

Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2021
Messages
62
Another vote for Ironwill components. As far as parachuting goes it's a complete myth. I think Tac vanes are a good option for 4 fletch if you want to keep the weight down. I just got white 2.75 Drivers. They weigh 5.6 grains a piece.
Respectfully I disagree but it could be in how you define parachuting. I will also say for most of us at common hunting ranges it’s a non issue. A larger vane at a harder helical will shed velocity much much quicker than a smaller one, obviously impacting not only trajectory but group size at distance. If your comparing how much offset you can run on a low profile 2 inch vane , with minimal surface area to begin with that’s a different story. Almost countless variables will effect how much vane you need to steer the Broadhead of your choice to the max yardage your trying to attain.
 

Zac

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2018
Messages
1,470
Location
UT
Respectfully I disagree but it could be in how you define parachuting. I will also say for most of us at common hunting ranges it’s a non issue. A larger vane at a harder helical will shed velocity much much quicker than a smaller one, obviously impacting not only trajectory but group size at distance. If your comparing how much offset you can run on a low profile 2 inch vane , with minimal surface area to begin with that’s a different story. Almost countless variables will effect how much vane you need to steer the Broadhead of your choice to the max yardage your trying to attain.
Why don't you watch the video before you comment.
 

Wapack

Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2021
Messages
62
Why don't you watch the video before you comment.
Amigo I did watch the video. What is important to consider is your comparing someone else’s unspecified set up. That video is a sample of one. Poundage, speed, point weight, dynamic spine, tune etc all effects how any given set up works in conjunction with a vane set up at any given range but especially at extended range. That said most of his helical data was with 2 inch vanes. You can run a lot of helical on a 2 inch vane with not much decay. As his (your?) video proves. The final chart did not give any set up info except for velocity decay at given ranges to 80. What if you want a scale set up to 100 or 110? MOST IMPORTATLY what is this changing group wise at your max yardage. whatever that might be. A fun experiment to do is get a bunch of Vanetec vanes the super spines, HP, Vmax and swift are all very close in weight and length. Negating the effect on spine and overall arrow weight, I shoot all my shafts bare through paper, they all tear perfect before fletching (im not right i know). Now set them up in varying degrees. OR you could go max helical vs max off set to save some time. Shoot them all at 100. Record all data. Many times. Now increase and decrease point weight. Record all data many times. These results will change with every individuals set up. Parachute effect in my mind and a lot of archers is the negative result of too much drag opening up groups. It does not have to be some wild ass corkscrew. Also its totally cool we don't have to agree.
 
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Zac

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2018
Messages
1,470
Location
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Here's the article. There is plenty of vanes that are larger than two inches. Thus far the parachute effect has been a total myth. Brandon McDonald has done some significant vane testing as well with Max Stealth's and other 3 inch vanes in a 5 degree helical on a four fletch. I believe he has went all the way out to 150 yards without any evidence of parachuting. Josh Jones from Spokane Valley Archery has also tested a 5 degree 3 fletch helical with Stealth's past 100 yards. Another interesting fact is Jake Kaminski shot an 8 degree helical with AAE Wav's and X10s during the Olympics at 70 meters. The definition of parachuting is a wide flutter pattern that almost immediately kills arrow flight. None of these gentleman saw this at 100 yards, Stallone could only produce that effect with extreme FOC and Flu Flu's. I think a lab radar at Arizona Archery Enterprises is sufficient data in order to be conclusive. If you are aware of a better study I'm all ears.
 
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Arctic Hunter

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2016
Messages
244
I think point weight has a lot to do with it. Light arrows with light point weight and a ton of vane on the back is where I’ve seen issues that I chalked up to the parachute effect.

I’ve heard some of the best shooters in the world talk about it. In person and not in person. Levi Morgan brought it up in a video. So there must be something to it.

to the OP, throw some FF 360’s on there in a four fletch. There a little softer vane and stabilize about anything. I shot four fletch Max stealth’s last year on the same arrow and they did okay with fixed BH’s. Never know until you try.
 
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