At what yardage do you dial?

Reburn

Mayhem Contributor
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Show your work
This isnt holdover guessing games-- both optics have a known zero
How is a 100 yard zero any different from a 300 yard zero?
A 600 yard shot gets dialed with both optics
One come up turns the knob slightly fewer revs
Both rounds impact at the same poi.

It isnt Kentucky windage if its known and repeatable. Your dope(correction)just starts at 325 instead of 125
Corrections past the zero get dialed just the same

Your "math" above was a false analogy with your field conditions (not the optics zero) not meshing with your dope chart.
This is a common misconception with new shooters
Your shot needs to be doped where your going to be firing in real time.
Range, wind, angle, temp, pressure and a verified ballistic coefficient(not from the mfg) all will effect poi.


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Your right I have assumed that you understand basic ballistics.


I have assumed that you travel or hunt in conditions other than when you sighted in your gun.

I'm not a new shooter nor is my math wrong.

I was simply typing to a new subject faster than you let go of the old subject which is how does Density altitude affect zero. Especially 200- or 300-yard zeros and how DA will make them now longer a 200 yard zero. Also how does DA affect drop. So, where we will start is by showing with facts that your 200 yard zero isn’t a 200 yard zero except where your gun was shot in at on the day or with the same environmental factors that it was shot in with.

You will have to agree that environmental inputs have a direct and substantial impact on bullet flight and drop and windage. Let’s just simplify these values to use the term density altitude as that is the most effective way of using a ballistics calculator.

Fact 1 is that a 100 yard zero on many guns doesn't change a full click value of elevation within 10k of DA change. There is no way to adjust a HALF click.

My 6.5 creedmoor at 200 yards has 0.1 Mil click less drop from 1800 DA to 8000 DA. This is an undeniable fact. So, fact 1 is unless you find somewhere with no wind and adjust your 200 yard zero at location your zero is one click wrong. Your zero must be exact at 200 yards. Not 190 not 210.

Fact 2. Since you know this you say well, I'll just adjust up one click and be good. Well no. Now sir you are using Kentucky windage as you haven't shot in your zero so now it’s not a zero and it 1 click adjustment at 200 yards. Which is no different than just being 1" high at 100 yards or whatever number. This is Kentucky windage and worked ok for me for over 2 decades. Using a ballistic calculator and dialing your Kentucky windage up doesn’t make it any more then dialing with a known variable error.

Fact 3. Tell me that introducing known errors into a complex mathematical formula such as ballistics is a good idea. No one in their right mind will say it’s a good idea. It’s an even worse idea when the solution is so simple. Right in front of your face and easier. The solution is zero at a range that most environmental factors get nullified out by being reduced beyond mechanical limits of the weapons system.

Fact 4. Shooting in a 100 yard zero is easier then shooting a 200 yard zero. Again, we are going back to math and statistics. Let’s assume you’re a stud and you’re a legit 1 moa on demand shooter. With a legit 1 moa on demand gun and any day any time can drop down and shoot a 1 moa group. Form will be by shortly to destroy this probably but let’s just say you are sir. No frown faces over flies you don’t like or "calling" a pulled shot when you see the target. Your telling me that it’s easier to get a 2.094" group and 200 yards to exactly center over lay an exact point to be zeroed is easier than getting a 1.047" circle at 100 yards to overlay a point exactly within the available clicks for the scope. It’s almost like you’re thinking that the 1/4 moa clicks are a 1/4" click at 100 yards. Fact it’s not. It’s so close at 100 yards it’s within the mechanical limits of the system but it’s not a 1/4” A moa like a mil is just and angle of measurement. But despite what many guys think a moa isn’t 1" and 100 yards or 6" at 600 yards its 6.282” at 600 so a 1/4 moa click is 1.5705" movement at 600 yards.

Fact 5. Let’s talk about wind. We will use my 6.5 creedmoor since it has a high BC and it’s in my strelok and easy for me to give you math. Any bullet with a lower BC then 0.600 and you will see MORE wind movement. We are at 100 yards at 1800 da the drift on my 6.5 in a 4mph full value crosswind at 90 degrees is what we will argue. Again, this is math and ballistics and fact. But let’s be damn precise. Its 0.2" drift. But at 200 yards its 0.8" of drift. At 300 yards its 1.8” As you can see it’s an exponential gain not a linear gain. Please explain to me how you can get a 2.094" circle centered on a point with a 0.8" wind drift possible but not guaranteed. Please tell me where in the outside world you will ever see a constant wind value over the full 200 yards. Please explain to me how 4mph is anything more than a light breeze that most shooters would dismiss and a non-issue. There are your facts and math.

You want to shoot a 300-yard zero bud do it. I don't care. But let’s not say it’s great and good and there are no problems with doing so. Let’s call a spade a spade.

We aren't even going to touch on ED, SD of your rounds and actual Muzzle velocity or published vs observed BC and how that changes with twists and speeds and the fact that bullets have ED and SD on their BC too. With all these known variables that we can’t really do anything about let’s not introduce more into our ballistics.

Furthermore, form has said this multiple times and I'll say it again. big game animals are big. They have a large kill zone and to be quite honest a forgiving kill zone because you don't need to thread the needle on a lung shot and hit it perfectly center you just need to hit the lungs anywhere that you damage them to kill the animal. Hit too high and you will probably shock the spine. Hit too low and you will pierce the heart which is great. Drift into the shoulders and you will probably clip something vital and or break the shoulders and anchor the animal. There is a wide range of what will kill an animal or incapacitate them. But don't try to pass off shoddy ballistic work with the statement its always worked in the past.
 

desertcj

WKR
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OK, so I shoot my group and center it on the bullseye at 100yds. Now I dial my turret up 8 clicks and reset it to zero...oh my! Did I zero at 100? Am I zeroed at 250yds? My ballistic app (Strelok) says yes and so do my results. You're DA can be accounted for in Strelok. My elevation has always been within 1 click so far out to 1000yds AND....I have dropped a few animals between 200-300yds without having to range and dial my scope. I admit, I'm probably really missing out on something, maybe I'll figure it out one day...lol.
 

Gearqueer

Lil-Rokslider
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Mar 17, 2019
Messages
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I see both sides of the debate:

An M16a2 iron sight is generally sighted in for a 200 meter zero (8/3 -2) where it’s set to hit out to 250 meters. About after 250 meters (if I recall exactly) is when Marines were trained to begin dialing their iron sights (this is before widespread use of optics). This system works on big targets and is relatively simple.

When I began training and operating with precision scoped rifles I started with a 100 yard zero (LE sniper). When Dialing MOA or Mils into precision rifle scopes you are enabling your optic to do this work for you. It’s not efficient to establish a zero at more than 100 yards for all the reasons stated above by Reburn and others. You are introducing unnecessary variables that make a difference at further range.

So back to the debate here; have the best of both worlds and zero for 100 yards, then dial up to your expected range and keep it there until it’s time to change it.


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T28w

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“I know you believe you understand what you think I said , but I’m not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant. “

Informative post as always Form.
 
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What does prs or f class have to do with hunting?

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in one discipline you can use less than optimal practices and successfully kill a whole bunch of stuff. In the others you will lose to people who aren’t too stubborn to eliminate variables and in turn hit more targets and shoot higher scores.
 

amassi

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in one discipline you can use less than optimal practices and successfully kill a whole bunch of stuff. In the others you will lose to people who aren’t too stubborn to eliminate variables and in turn hit more targets and shoot higher scores.
So totally irrelevant to the conversation of when to dial when shooting at an elk?

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This is 100% correct. And that z5 will kill animals just fine out to 500 yards even with an introduced error into your math. At 600 I would start to become uncomfortable with my bullet steering system (scope) and math.

I chose to go to a scope that would dial further then I wanted to shoot and it wasnt the Z5. So I sold it. My brother still uses his and still kills great at 400 yards.

I can tell you that I reach my minimum expansion velocity on my bromoor at 750 yards at 1604 fps at a DA of 1800k out of a 21" barrel with a 143 gr ELD-X. So that is as far as I could reasonably kill with that gun. But I like to practice further so I changed scopes.

I won the Z5 (3-18) and a Tikka T3X in 6.5 Creedmoor in a raffle. The Z5 is either going to be repurposed or sold. I brought it solely as an example where there could be a drawback to using a 100 yard zero.

I practice at distances much further than what I normally expect when hunting. If you train to consistently hit at X yards, then all shots at X-Y yard become easier. Also, know your limitations. For each of my rifles I know how far I can push it to ensure
From my understanding from Forms posts and others is this.
At 100 yards your group isn’t affected by factors like wind and your POA is more precise.
Lets say you are shooting 300 yards to set your zero and the average middle of your group is 1/2 MOA left. Was this due to a slight wind? Mirage? Your rifles load? Shooters ability? So do you adjust your scope the 1/2 to the right and shoot again? Now you dial the 1/2MOA and the next group is 1 MOA right because maybe the wind changed and also 1/2MOA high. Do you readjust back left 1MOA and down 1/2MOA?
I do understand the logic that you are still dialing the dope supplied by the ballistics program if you have a 100 or 300 yard zero but I now believe there is less of a margin of error factored into your initial zero if zeroing at 100 vs say 300.
 
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I have watched a lot of “experts” never get to shoot cause they were dialing....

It’s a fine line, but if you can’t shoot 400 without spinning a turret, using a ballistic app, wind gauge etc. you’re going to miss a lot of opportunity IMO.
 
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So totally irrelevant to the conversation of when to dial when shooting at an elk?

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If people are happy to choose the less precise solution that induces more variables and makes it harder to set and check zero, yeah, totally irrelevant.
 

desertcj

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If people are happy to choose the less precise solution that induces more variables and makes it harder to set and check zero, yeah, totally irrelevant.

I'm not really sure what's so hard about verifying that you're 2" high at 100yds? If it makes you feel better, dial down 8 clicks and verify that your dead on at 100 and then dial your turret back to 0.
 
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I'm not really sure what's so hard about verifying that you're 2" high at 100yds? If it makes you feel better, dial down 8 clicks and verify that your dead on at 100 and then dial your turret back to 0.

If you set your zero at 100 yards with a 2” elevation offset in your ballistic calculator you should get accurate solutions same as a 100 yard zero with no zero offset far as I can understand. There is nothing hard about it, just adds an extra step and there are a few reasons I wouldn’t prefer it. I think the arguments here have been primarily against setting your zero based on shots at longer distance.
 

ORfish

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2 inches high at 100, and do not touch dial unless over 300 yards. (maximum point blank approach)
 

amassi

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I'm not really sure what's so hard about verifying that you're 2" high at 100yds? If it makes you feel better, dial down 8 clicks and verify that your dead on at 100 and then dial your turret back to 0.
Millions of dead deer and elk would agree with the efficacy of this approach

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I’ve used a 3” high @100 zero and dialed up for 1018 yards and killed an elk. Now I personally use a 100 yard zero and dial up for the distance I think I might have a quick shot at.
Perfect example is a week ago in NM I usually was dialed for 250 yards. But the few times I hunted the timber I would dial down. I’m pretty confident I could kill an elk @50 yards with a 250 yard zero. But between excitement, my breathing, an elk moving I wanted to be as close as possible with my zero.

My wife on the other hand I had zero’d @250. She wasn’t going to be dialing so to me that made the most sense.
 

tdot

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To say one method is wrong, is...well... wrong.

In my opinion it depends on a bunch of things. What's the ultimate yardage that a person expects to shoot? What is the caliber? Velocity? Prey?

I have scopes that I zero at 100 and I have scopes that are zero'd at 200. And by zeroed, I mean zeroed. 2 groups of 5 rounds hitting the bullseye within an acceptable margin of error for that rifle, cartridge and me. And that is confirmed over several trips to the range, under no-wind conditions... if its windy, I dont work on my zero. And this includes no tail wind...

To say that a bullet is not effected within its first 100 yards, is a stretch. Depending on the bullet/cartridge combo, some will be effected less within the first 200, then others will be effected in the first 100.

Heck, my 22, which is zeroed at 50, I think it is effected more by wind then my 308 zeroed at 200.

Dont get me wrong. I like a 100yard zero. But if an error is present at 200 yards, then it is present at 100 yards and just more difficult to see. It's a bit like loads that are developed at 100 yards and then fall apart at 600+ yards.

I also have a zero stop on some scopes, so why would I set a zero and then dial above it for my zero. For me a huge benefit of the zero stop is that I can check my turret, without looking at the scope. I lose that benefit if I'm off the zero stop.

Ultimately the most important thing is to know why you have made a decision and how your combination of components works within that system.
 

Marketer2

FNG
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Nov 2, 2019
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That scope should be great. FFP is my first choice now. I try to take any extra steps out of shooting. I don’t have a Bluetooth rangefinder yet but eventually I will.
 
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Another 200 yard zero guy here. Will put cross hairs right on animal inside 250 yards. Good for elk, and simple. Adjust turret for more than 250.

My whitetail rifles are a different story.
100 yard zero on those due to different area and distances that I would expect to see an animal at.
 
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