Bare shaft tuning a recurve

[Kindo]

So, I’ve decided to dabble back into traditional archery after an 11 year hiatus shooting in the world of training wheels.

I solely used to shoot cedar shafts that always flew well from my bows but durability was constantly an issue for me (maybe it was because I was a teenager for most of my shooting? ).

I’ve decided to give carbons a try this time but I’m having some issues with my tuning process with my dads Widow. I am consistently getting a nock left and slightly high bare shaft when compared to a fletched arrow. I have tried 340 and 400 spine as well as aluminum/brass inserts and field points from 100-200 grains. No matter what I cut off, or leave and weight taken away or added on, always a left nock.

I’m never going to claim great form but I can hold my own. I tuned a set of arrows on my own Widow PSA this evening using my usual techniques without too much problem. The PSA is supposed to draw the same as my dads one piece bow so I don’t think it’s completely me.

One thing to note: I’ve found that a higher nocking point (1/2” to 3/4”) above level, seems to fix the L/R nock discrepancy but still leaves me with some mild porpoising.

Bow stats: 62” widow at 54# at 27.5” draw (what I am actually drawing). Tillered for 3-finger split (how I shoot) New string. BH within spec.

Arrows: Gold Tip 340 Traditionals and Traditional Only 400s from 3Rivers.

one additional note: things were REALLY bad last week. Went to my local shop and bought new nocks with better string tension and that made things much better.

Thanks!

 

[Beendare]

Could be a couple of things. ...but You might still be too stiff. More info and someone will solve it.

How long are your arrows?
Are you getting a consistent result on each shot- or is it erratic from shot to shot?
Is your arrow aligned with the centerline of the bow while on the string..or slightly in or out?
Is the hump of your shelf right over your hand?

Do you have a 300 gr FP to try on those 400's?

When bare shafting; I don't worry so much about Nok location- like nok right or left...but where the arrow impacts. When its perfect you can see the bareshaft fly straight with no wobble.

I'm at 30" DL shooting a high performance ILF recurve at 52# and I shoot 340's 31" with 225 gr up front




FYI, I just went through this process with a lighter bow and had to trim my rest as the arrow was giving me a low bare shaft no matter what I did with the shelf rug 1 3/4" long. Trimmed it up and the hump is right over my hand and it shoots perfect bare shaft with fletched at 20 yds and under.

 

[Steve O]

I think your arrows are so stiff you are getting some kind of false reading. I’d find some 500s.

 

[ledflight]

Have you taken slow mo video? a recent model phone can get 120 or 240 fps to let you see the arrow in action.

 

[willfrye027]

I’m shooting a similar draw weight and length. My 340s are 31in shafts with 250 point weight. Could be a spine issue but you might try tuning for impact rather than paper tear? Just a thought.

 

[Kindo]

I think your arrows are so stiff you are getting some kind of false reading. I’d find some 500s.

Thanks for the reply Steve, typically I would agree with you but I’ve had zero issues with tuning my 53# Great Plains and 54# Widow PSA. This widow PTF just seems to have a lot more “zip” than the other two for some reason. I brought it in to the bow shop and we checked weight at my draw length (I use a clicker) and confirmed I’m pulling about #54/55.

I tried throwing some weaker spined arrows with it last night and I thought the dang things were going to miss my target!

 

[Kindo]

I’m shooting a similar draw weight and length. My 340s are 31in shafts with 250 point weight. Could be a spine issue but you might try tuning for impact rather than paper tear? Just a thought.

Thanks for the suggestion and I am going to try that tonight. I’ll admit, I’m a bit OCD with this kind of thing. If impact is the same or similar but the nock flight is messy, is it safe to assume it’s more of a form thing? This bow seems a good bit snappier than my other two and you can tell through the draw cycle. Haven’t tested with a chrono yet though.
Thanks again

 

[Kindo]

Could be a couple of things. ...but You might still be too stiff. More info and someone will solve it.

How long are your arrows?
Are you getting a consistent result on each shot- or is it erratic from shot to shot?
Is your arrow aligned with the centerline of the bow while on the string..or slightly in or out?
Is the hump of your shelf right over your hand?

Do you have a 300 gr FP to try on those 400's?

When bare shafting; I don't worry so much about Nok location- like nok right or left...but where the arrow impacts. When its perfect you can see the bareshaft fly straight with no wobble.

I'm at 30" DL shooting a high performance ILF recurve at 52# and I shoot 340's 31" with 225 gr up front




FYI, I just went through this process with a lighter bow and had to trim my rest as the arrow was giving me a low bare shaft no matter what I did with the shelf rug 1 3/4" long. Trimmed it up and the hump is right over my hand and it shoots perfect bare shaft with fletched at 20 yds and under.

I tried arrows everywhere from full length/uncut down to 29.5" in 1/4" increments.
Shots are staying very consistent in terms of repeatability of both fletched and bare shafts. I'm shooting from 3 yards out to about 14 in my garage.
Centerline looks good.
Hump sits right about over my index knuckle carpal/metacarpal joint.

As far as point weight is concerned. I've tried with both standard inserts (14 gr I think) and 50 gr brass inserts and I have coupled both with field points from 100gr to 200 grains in 25 gr increments.

Highest I went with the 400 spine arrows was the brass insert and a 200 gr field point and it was ugly to say the least. Showed incredibly weak. I swapped the 200 for a 100 and stuck it on my PSA and it shot slightly stiff consistently. (I did that just to make sure it wasn't me overthinking it.)

So far the 340s are all I've been able to get to fly somewhat well between bareshaft and fletched shafts. The 400s may just have to be reserved for one of the other bows...

 

[Newtosavage]

If you're using paper to tune, the first step is to move the paper tuning frame out of your way and then shoot the bare shafts at least 10 yards and see what they do. If they are reasonably close, you can move out to 20 yards. It's the point of impact that matters, not the paper tear. It's tough for most compounders to get away from paper tuning, but aside from nock height location, it has very little value for recurve finger shooters, and in fact can produce very misleading results.

53-54# should tune a 400 spine arrow with a standard 125 grain point and aluminum insert at around 30" length. If you're talking 28" arrows, then you will need more point weight in most cases but we all shoot our bows a little differently too.

 

[Newtosavage]

Also, nock high can also be an underspined arrow and nock low can be overspined, esp. if you're shooting off the shelf.

 

[willfrye027]

Thanks for the suggestion and I am going to try that tonight. I’ll admit, I’m a bit OCD with this kind of thing. If impact is the same or similar but the nock flight is messy, is it safe to assume it’s more of a form thing? This bow seems a good bit snappier than my other two and you can tell through the draw cycle. Haven’t tested with a chrono yet though.
Thanks again

I’m not an expert whatsoever so keep that in mind. Personally my tolerance for tuning issues is much much higher with my recurve. I know that my own form and the limitations of the weapon are going to limit my accuracy much more than fine tune. If bareshafts hit with fletched, bow is quiet, and broadheads fly true, it’s a perfect tune IMO. With a compound I totally understand the need to get a clean paper tear however. Just my .2

 

[Beendare]

OK...so you are no rookie....I couldn't tell by your initial post.

High bare shaft indicates raising nok point. ...

400's with std nok and 125gr point at +/- 30" should be pretty close

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[joelpresmyk]

This is an amazing thread

 

[Kindo]

OK...so you are no rookie....I couldn't tell by your initial post.

High bare shaft indicates raising nok point. ...

400's with std nok and 125gr point at +/- 30" should be pretty close

________

Not a rookie in terms of time spent shooting but this issue is making me look (and feel) like I've never done it before!

I've always shot three finger split and I've never had to make such drastic adjustments in nock height (raising it up). Will some bows just flat out tune better with a nock height more than 1/2" or 5/8" above level with shelf? It just looks so silly to me that I feel that can't be right but the bare shaft comparison says otherwise.

Also, being my first time dabbling in carbon with a recurve, is carbon more finicky than say a cedar shaft with a 125 or 150 gr snuffer on the end?

One other thing I thought of while at work this morning: since switching nocks to a slightly tighter pressure on string/serving made a notable improvement, could adding a second tied in lower nocking point be beneficial in limiting any nock movement after the release? I've never shot anything like that on my stick bows but I've seen others with them.

Also, you mentioned that you shortened up the rug on your shelf. Right now, I have mine full length as I hate any potential for a arrow getting bumped and resonating off the riser. What is the idea behind shortening or trimming it up? Just less friction/surface area to impact arrow flight?

 

[Kindo]

If you're using paper to tune, the first step is to move the paper tuning frame out of your way and then shoot the bare shafts at least 10 yards and see what they do. If they are reasonably close, you can move out to 20 yards. It's the point of impact that matters, not the paper tear. It's tough for most compounders to get away from paper tuning, but aside from nock height location, it has very little value for recurve finger shooters, and in fact can produce very misleading results.

53-54# should tune a 400 spine arrow with a standard 125 grain point and aluminum insert at around 30" length. If you're talking 28" arrows, then you will need more point weight in most cases but we all shoot our bows a little differently too.

Thanks! I haven't tried any paper tuning at all yet. I'd say its more of a "modified walk-back tune" if I had to give it a label. That arrow length/insert/point weight combo you mention was pretty much exactly what I was shooting for.

 

[Kindo]

I’m not an expert whatsoever so keep that in mind. Personally my tolerance for tuning issues is much much higher with my recurve. I know that my own form and the limitations of the weapon are going to limit my accuracy much more than fine tune. If bareshafts hit with fletched, bow is quiet, and broadheads fly true, it’s a perfect tune IMO. With a compound I totally understand the need to get a clean paper tear however. Just my .2

I like where your .02 is at! I was hoping to get this a bit more narrowed down in terms of point weight so then I could order some broadheads and see how all 3 shoot together! I'd hate to buy some 150 grainers and then they don't work! All my old setups have glue-on heads so I can't try them at all.

 

[MrTim]

I always start with a full length bare shaft with the weight that I want up front(insert + field point) LESS 25 grains. I do this for 2 reasons: 1. If I cut too much and make the shaft too stiff I’m still ok; 2. The shaft will stiffen up a little when you add your fletching.
I shoot at 5 yards and trim until I see the shaft start to become less weak. Cutting less off as I get closer to tune down to 1/8” at a time. When the shaft starts shooting straight, I back up and confirm at 10 yards then 15 yards. Then I put on the field point that i want to use, that is 25 grains heavier, and see how that shoots. I want that to be slightly weak because when I put the fletching on it will stiffen the arrow slightly.
Yes, adding a lower nock point usually helps with 3 under shooting.

 

[Beendare]

Not a rookie in terms of time spent shooting but this issue is making me look (and feel) like I've never done it before!

I've been there!

I've always shot three finger split and I've never had to make such drastic adjustments in nock height (raising it up). Will some bows just flat out tune better with a nock height more than 1/2" or 5/8" above level with shelf? It just looks so silly to me that I feel that can't be right but the bare shaft comparison says otherwise.

Not usually...I think your issue is below

Also, being my first time dabbling in carbon with a recurve, is carbon more finicky than say a cedar shaft with a 125 or 150 gr snuffer on the end?

Carbon has been easier for me...more forgiving

One other thing I thought of while at work this morning: since switching nocks to a slightly tighter pressure on string/serving made a notable improvement, could adding a second tied in lower nocking point be beneficial in limiting any nock movement after the release? I've never shot anything like that on my stick bows but I've seen others with them.

Two tied in noks above and below is a must......it could be your issue. It keeps the arrow from moving slightly on the string. When I have a new string that is tight on my noes, I put a little wax on there. Too tight and you will get a stiff reading from Bareshaft.

Also, you mentioned that you shortened up the rug on your shelf. Right now, I have mine full length as I hate any potential for a arrow getting bumped and resonating off the riser. What is the idea behind shortening or trimming it up? Just less friction/surface area to impact arrow flight?

I've had bows with a long rug but always a bump- the bump is a must. I'm now using hardware store furniture feet on this Tradtech riser so no need for a long rug...mines maybe 3/4" and trimmed with a razor blade to a prominent bump maybe 1/4" wide on top. FWIW, My arrows were bouncing off the shelf without the bump.


_______

 

[MattyWight]

I feel like your recipe is in the ball park. Is the center cut of your widow the same as the bow you were shooting previously? This would have a big impact on spine requirements.

 

[Kevin Dill]

As long as you're playing with all possibilities, may I suggest....

Take a couple of nocks and use a thin emery board to work the pinch points until they barely hold the arrow. Use those 'relieved' nocks with different bare shaft combos and see if nock pinch might be having an effect. Think about the amount of force required to snap a nock on or off the string. Whether little or a lot, that same amount of force (to overcome resistance) is required as the arrow leaves the string.

Compared to a mechanical release and compound, a traditional bow and fingers shooter will produce a greater degree of lateral string movement and oscillation when the string jumps off the finger tips. Slow motion video confirms it. A tight nock can affect how (and where) the arrow departs the string.

Doing this may not actually solve the issue, but it could be helpful in diagnosing what's going on.