Bear spray or pistol?

[SonnyDay]

I was backpack hunting elk last month, and along with our rifles, had a can of spray. There was a black bear that was clearly interested in our camp. We kept things pretty clean and hung our food and dishes at night and when out hunting.

It was at or below zero in the mornings... and on the last day I happened to read the label on the bear spray, which said not to store it below 32 degrees F!

Anyone experienced frozen / inoperable spray?

I used to spend a lot of time in the AK wilderness and usually carried a .44, but no longer own it. This recent experience made me want to put a pistol on my Christmas list!

 

[ScreamingPotato]

Pistol works on two-legged animals as well, cats, pissed off wounded antlered critters... plus just way better to own than cans of pepper that are weaker strength than regular mace.

 

[Dragonfish]

if i gotta choose between spray and a gun, it's a gun everytime. shotgun, 45/70, or 454 revolver.

 

[trophyhill]

I spoke with a guy tonight at the Archery Shoppe in ABQ who splits his time in Maui and Alaska and visits Albuquerque frequently. So I had to ask him. I said to him, "bear spray? Or pistol?" He knew exactly what I was asking him.

He said

"neither! Sawed off shotgun slung over your shoulder that you can get to quickly, or airhorn like you have on a boat. Bears hate noise. If you have to shoot, double o buck to the face does the trick. Brown bears run right thru spray and a pistol only pisses them off"

 

[Mudtracker]

Spray. If you don't have a grizzly bear tag then you have no business shooting one. If you're scared stay the **** out of the woods.

I don’t think the people that have been mauled we’re scared either. And some of them didn’t make it out to tell the story either. If anything wants to kill me I will try my best to kill it first. I’d imagine you would do the same.

 

[Mudtracker]

Seriously. All these hunters unloading on bears this year has really made me wonder how it's even legal to carry a sidearm when archery hunting. You CHOSE to go sneaking around in griz country. The bear doesn't deserve a face full of lead because of YOUR highly questionable (common-sense wise) choices for recreation. Bring the spray and take responsibility for your choices. Spray has been proven very effective and it's non-lethal. You owe the bear that much respect when you choose to go tip toeing through its house.

research has been done that shows the first encounter a bear has with spray is very effective. The results are much less impressive on the second and third encounters. I do not think hunters/hikers are looking for any reason to shoot a bear. No one wants that litigation.

 

[Deplorable77]

I'm just following this thread for the entertainment now. All logical reasoning and informative posting has gone out the window.

I like this way of thinking. I also heard that lazer beam could work well, one of my friend used it against a bear.

 

[jsb]

These aren't in the wilderness - not even national forest or very remote. We have an absolute shitload of bears. I will not hesitate to shoot to kill if a bear charges.

Those are cool pics man. Totally agree the population is out of control in some areas.

I carried a gun for a couple years back in the 80s but decided it was too cumbersome. Then I carried nothing for years, then spray when it became available. I'll take my chances with the spray. Carrying both creates a possible fatal moment of indecision IMO.

None of the serious archery hunters I know carry a pistol. Then again there's a guy in my neighborhood who won't go for a walk behind the house without being strapped. Everybody draws the line in a different place.

Somebody mentioned spraying from the holster--exactly. That is how it needs to be carried. Pop the top and spray from the hip. Faster response time than pulling a gun from a holster.



This guy moved into my favorite elk spot recently. Yeah it makes me nervous but I don't think a gun increases my odds of surviving an encounter. I have one defense, I know what it is, no decision to be made. And hiking with my family I don't have to worry about shooting my wife or kids. Same logic applies for home defense--bear spray in my night stand. Not going to start blasting a gun in the dark with my kids close by. I'll take my chances with the spray.

 

[mt100gr.]

Those are cool pics man. Totally agree the population is out of control in some areas.

I carried a gun for a couple years back in the 80s but decided it was too cumbersome. Then I carried nothing for years, then spray when it became available. I'll take my chances with the spray. Carrying both creates a possible fatal moment of indecision IMO.

None of the serious archery hunters I know carry a pistol. Then again there's a guy in my neighborhood who won't go for a walk behind the house without being strapped. Everybody draws the line in a different place.

Somebody mentioned spraying from the holster--exactly. That is how it needs to be carried. Pop the top and spray from the hip. Faster response time than pulling a gun from a holster.



This guy moved into my favorite elk spot recently. Yeah it makes me nervous but I don't think a gun increases my odds of surviving an encounter. I have one defense, I know what it is, no decision to be made. And hiking with my family I don't have to worry about shooting my wife or kids. Same logic applies for home defense--bear spray in my night stand. Not going to start blasting a gun in the dark with my kids close by. I'll take my chances with the spray.

I always appreciate calculated decision making. I have considered the 'fatal moment of indecision' aspect as well.... for me the additional option outweighs the single reaction response which, I agree, would probably be faster....

Personally, I carry the spray on my hip - mounted on my pack belt, always forward, etc. Here, I reason that an encounter on the trail is most likely and my hand to my hip is a natural reaction for me. (The wonderful mountain grouse has challenged my reflexes with enthusiastic flushes.)

My Glock rides on my chest. If my pack is set down somewhere, I have typically made myself aware of my surroundings and won't be trucking along surprising anything. If I am working up a carcass, it won't be by accident that an encounter with a bear occurs. Same goes for returning for meat. The deadly force option is for my peace of mind if an encounter goes sideways or if I am knowingly increasing the risk.

Then there's the obvious wild card 'what-ifs'. Wind in my face, in the tent, partner attacked, ....other predators, etc.

Another situation I consider is how uncomfortable it would be for me to hike out of the mountains with an empty can (after a western encounter).

I'll also add - my decision of what to carry changes with location and company - solo, wife and kids/ partner / backpacking vs meat hauling, etc. Also depends on what my primary weapon is.

Lots of factors/situations to consider for a very unlikely circumstance. I believe the most important part is finding a defense that fits your shit-hits-the-fan-capacity for decision making.

As mentioned above, nearly all of the bears I have been close to couldn't get out of sight quickly enough. That's how I like them. I'm prepared to kill an aggressive bear but I would much prefer they don't stick around to see what will happen.

 

[BuckeyeRifleman]

If I had to choose one it would be the Glock 20. If something wants me dead, I want it dead. There seems to be a lot of bias in the “studies” that show spray is more effective.

I also shoot handguns a lot a feel comfortable in that realm. Most people suck with handguns, so there’s that.

I carried both this year in bear country. It’s nice to have options. I can envision several scenarios where I would want to use a less leathal option.

 

[trophyhill]

I always appreciate calculated decision making. I have considered the 'fatal moment of indecision' aspect as well.... for me the additional option outweighs the single reaction response which, I agree, would probably be faster....

Personally, I carry the spray on my hip - mounted on my pack belt, always forward, etc. Here, I reason that an encounter on the trail is most likely and my hand to my hip is a natural reaction for me. (The wonderful mountain grouse has challenged my reflexes with enthusiastic flushes.)

My Glock rides on my chest. If my pack is set down somewhere, I have typically made myself aware of my surroundings and won't be trucking along surprising anything. If I am working up a carcass, it won't be by accident that an encounter with a bear occurs. Same goes for returning for meat. The deadly force option is for my peace of mind if an encounter goes sideways or if I am knowingly increasing the risk.

Then there's the obvious wild card 'what-ifs'. Wind in my face, in the tent, partner attacked, ....other predators, etc.

Another situation I consider is how uncomfortable it would be for me to hike out of the mountains with an empty can (after a western encounter).

I'll also add - my decision of what to carry changes with location and company - solo, wife and kids/ partner / backpacking vs meat hauling, etc. Also depends on what my primary weapon is.

Lots of factors/situations to consider for a very unlikely circumstance. I believe the most important part is finding a defense that fits your shit-hits-the-fan-capacity for decision making.

As mentioned above, nearly all of the bears I have been close to couldn't get out of sight quickly enough. That's how I like them. I'm prepared to kill an aggressive bear but I would much prefer they don't stick around to see what will happen.

That's a great post ^^^^^^

 

[zog]

I took a two day class on "surviving the grizz" last year. Looked interesting so I did it.

Day 1 - Bear behavior, avoiding conflict, covering for attack, and bear spray.
Day 2 - All Pistol. basic shooting, 250-300 rounds at paper targets in the am, then charging bear target pm.

Had a guest speaker, Todd Orr, double grizzly attack survivor. If you don't know, he's all over the internet, look him up.

Saw in person a trained captive grizzly (rescued orphan) charge at food at 35 mph. Wow was that impressive.

On both days we fired at a target coming at us at 35 mph (grizzly charging speed). From 30 yds that's less than 2.5 seconds from a dead start. First runs were with weapon already drawn and warning (ready,set,go). Second runs were draw and fire with warning, third runs draw and fire with no warning. Then you need to follow up surprise draw and fire with full gear on. It's quite different with full gear on.

A few takeaways:

It's really all about odds. There are lots of ways to get hurt on a hunt, a bear is only one of them. So you have to decide just how many situations you could get into and which risks are worth the trouble to guard against in the wild.

SPRAY - Spray is virtually useless without practice. Most buyers (like me before this class) don't understand that. I'm now surprised they even sell it without a practice can attached. They could make more money doing so. No, you don't need much practice, but you need SOME. Most people don't practice even once. If you've never unholstered spray and fired it at a charging target inside of 2.5 seconds, by surprise, you're in for, well, a surprise. You need to know what type of holster works for YOU and where you will wear it with all your gear.

Or you might be better off spraying from the hip. In our class it was about 50-50 preference for speed and accuracy on spray-from-hip vs draw.

All that being said, spray is almost useless on a charging mother anyway. Pepper fog will not stop her. A direct hit to her eyes and nose MIGHT stop her, or it might make her more frightened and determined. Spraying a fog might work on a downwind curious hungry boar, but so will noise and human body odor.

With help from the class, I now know the odds that I could draw and spray a charging mom are almost zero. I throw spray in the backpack because it might work in camp on a calm day on a curious bear.

Claims that "spray has been proven to work" are like saying "the lottery has been proven to make people rich". True statement. Spray has also been "proven" to be useless, providing false security. You're probably better off knowing you don't have it and letting that knowledge heighten your awareness senses. If you're hiking along a noisy stream (where most trails and bears are) you will have zero awareness and that spray can would need to be on your finger the entire time.

Now, factor all of the above in, and add WIND - how many days have you hunted with no wind? Will that wind work in your favor? Can you keep her downwind while you spray?

As if the odds weren't already low, the wind factor alone ruins the whole idea of carrying holstered spray.

Also, I learned that I would only be more confused under pressure if I had both spray and a pistol holstered and ready. If I'm set on bear defense, I better know ahead of time how I will react, and practice ONLY that.


PISTOL - hopefully nobody needs to remind that you better be proficient drawing and firing under pressure. I venture to guess that many carriers don't practice enough to hit a moving bear in the brain under pressure. Do you practice drawing and firing kill shots at a charging target with all your gear on?

The great thing about this class was we got to try all holster types all with full gear on - chest, belly, shoulder, hip. I was about to buy a chest holster until I tried drawing and shooting while wearing a backpack and binos. Now I know I'm a hip holster guy. But everybody was different. We practiced drawing and firing three shots to the face (brain) at the 35 mph charging target. It was training but frankly it was just plain fun, too.

If you are going to shoot her, you better kill her. Bullets will not deter a mother protecting cubs - they will only confirm her fear. If you don't regularly practice drawing and shooting your pistol in full gear, you will probably make things worse, not better.

Which is more important to you? To be able to kill a standing broadside elk, or to be able kill a charging bear? If they are both important, do you practice both? Or do you let pistol practice suffer because it's not likely to happen? If that's how you're thinking, then just go with "not likely to need it" and leave the pistol in the truck.

Think about a six day hunt - you hope for one shot on an elk, and you fear you might get one shot on a threatening bear. If you do get a charging bear, won't that shot be more important to you than the shot on the elk? So how much do you practice both for your hunt?

Just to conclude (in case anybody's reading all this), the main takeaway is that this class did not make us experts. If anything it taught us how much we don't know. It was a lot more about making us think ahead of time, what risks are important to you, how will you react, how much preparation you need for any of these defenses. The best takeaway for me was to stop bringing holstered bear spray, and either stay proficient with my pistol or leave it in the safe.

Your chances of being hurt by a bear are less than your chances of being hurt driving to your hunt. Are you as careful about your drive as you are about bears? Follow speed limit, including advisory? Cell phone down? No shimmying on washboard? Helmets on 4x4?

 

[trophyhill]

I took a two day class on "surviving the grizz" last year. Looked interesting so I did it.

Day 1 - Bear behavior, avoiding conflict, covering for attack, and bear spray.
Day 2 - All Pistol.

Had a guest speaker, Todd Orr, double grizzly attack survivor. If you don't know, he's all over the internet, look him up.

Saw in person a trained captive grizzly (rescued orphan) charge at food at 35 mph. Wow was that impressive.

On both days we fired at a target coming at us at 35 mph (grizzly charging speed). From 30 yds that's less than 2.5 seconds from a dead start. First runs were with weapon already drawn and warning (ready,set,go). Second runs were draw and fire with warning, third runs draw and fire with no warning. Then with full gear on, draw and fire with no warning. It's quite different with full gear on.

A few takeaways:

It's really all about odds. There are lots of ways to get hurt, a bear is only one of them, so you have to decide just how many situations you could get into and which risks are worth the trouble to guard against in the wild.

SPRAY - Spray is virtually useless without practice. Most buyers (like me) don't understand that. I'm now surprised they even sell it without a practice can attached. They could make more money doing so. No, you don't need much practice, but you need SOME. Most people don't practice even once. If you've never unholstered spray and fired it at a charging target inside of 2.5 seconds, by surprise, you're in for, well, a surprise. You need to know what type of holster works for YOU and where you will wear it with all your gear.

Or you might be better off spraying from the hip. In our class it was about 50-50 preference for speed and accuracy on spray from hip or draw.

All that being said, spray is almost useless on a charging mother anyway. Pepper fog will not stop her. A direct hit to her eyes and nose MIGHT stop her, or it might make her more frightened and determined. Spraying a fog might work on a downwind curious hungry boar, but so will noise and human body odor.

With help from the class, I now know the odds that I could draw and spray a charging mom are almost zero. I throw spray in the backpack because it might work in camp on a calm day on a curious bear.

Claims that "spray has been proven to work" are like saying "the lottery has been proven to make people rich". True statement. Spray has also been "proven" to be useless, providing false security. You're probably better off knowing you don't have it and letting that knowledge heighten your awareness senses. If you're hiking along a noisy stream (where most trails and bears are) you will have zero awareness and that spray can would need to be on your finger the entire time.

Now, factor all of the above in, and add WIND - how many days have you hunted with no wind? Will that wind work in your favor? Can you keep her downwind while you spray?

As if the odds weren't already low, the wind factor alone ruins the whole idea of carrying holstered spray.

Also, I learned that I would only be more confused under pressure if I had both spray and a pistol holstered and ready. If you're set on bear defense, your better know ahead of time how will react, and practice ONLY that.


PISTOL - hopefully nobody needs to remind that you better be proficient drawing and firing under pressure. I venture to guess that many carriers don't practice enough to hit a moving bear in the brain under pressure. Do you practice drawing and firing kill shots at a charging target with all your gear on?

The great thing about this class was we got to try all holster types all with full gear on - chest, belly, shoulder, hip. I was about to buy a chest holster until I tried drawing and shooting while wearing a backpack and binos. Now I know I'm a hip holster guy. But everybody was different. We practiced drawing and firing three shots to the face (brain) at the 35 mph charging target. It was training but frankly it was just plain fun, too.

If you are going to shoot her, you better kill her. Bullets will not deter a mother protecting cubs - they will only confirm her fear. If you don't regularly practice drawing and shooting your pistol in full gear, you will probably make things worse, not better.

Which is more important to you? To be able to do: kill a standing broadside elk, or to be able kill a charging bear? If they are both important, do you practice both? Or do you let pistol practice suffer because it's not likely to happen? If that's how you're thinking, then just go with "not likely to need it" and leave the pistol in the truck.

Just to conclude (in case anybody's reading all this), the main takeaway is that this class did not make us experts. If anything it taught us how much we don't know. It was a lot more about making us think ahead of time, what risks are important to you, how will you react, how much preparation you need for any of these defenses. The best takeaway for me was to stop bringing holstered bear spray, and either stay proficient with my pistol or leave it in the safe.

That's a great write up! Thanks for taking the time!

 

[Elk97]

Zog- thanks for posting about the class. Who put this on and will it be available again?
Thanks.

 

[jsb]

I took a two day class on "surviving the grizz" last year. Had a guest speaker, Todd Orr, double grizzly attack survivor. If you don't know, he's all over the internet, look him up.

From what I read Orr had both bear spray and a pistol with him that day. Did he give any explanation for why he did not use the pistol he was carrying? Seems like he had ample opportunity.

 

[zog]

From what I read Orr had both bear spray and a pistol with him that day. Did he give any explanation for why he did not use the pistol he was carrying? Seems like he had ample opportunity.

yes - good lesson - he had a long revolver and could not get to it before he was mauled. He tried to get to it during the mauling but couldn't. He also says he got her with spray and it either did nothing or made her more vicious.

Be sure to check his videos - he explains this.

 

[jsb]

So he couldn't pull out his gun because the barrel was too long? Ok.

But he did manage to get his spray out. What I read said the spray is what he thought drove the bear away during the first attack. So there's that.

If it were me, and I were hiking out after an attack with an empty can of spray, pretty sure I would have that pistol in hand and ready to go. But he didn't, which is odd, and got attacked again, and was again unable to deploy the pistol.

Not really second guessing Orr, he's hardcore and I have known about him even before this happened. But just to be clear: you're saying even though he failed to successfully use his pistol to repel either attack, he is now a proponent of pistol over bear spray?

 

[jsb]

So he couldn't pull out his gun because the barrel was too long? Ok.

But he did manage to get his spray out. What I read said the spray is what he thought drove the bear away during the first attack. So there's that.

If it were me, and I were hiking out after an attack with an empty can of spray, pretty sure I would have that pistol in hand and ready to go. But he didn't, which is odd, and got attacked again, and was again unable to deploy the pistol.

Not really second guessing Orr, he's hardcore and I have known about him even before this happened. But just to be clear: you're saying even though he failed to successfully use his pistol to repel either attack, he is now a proponent of pistol over bear spray?

 

[zog]

Zog- thanks for posting about the class. Who put this on and will it be available again?
Thanks.

http://www.tacticmt.com/classes/

"Surviving the Griz"

 

[zog]

So he couldn't pull out his gun because the barrel was too long? Ok.

But he did manage to get his spray out. What I read said the spray is what he thought drove the bear away during the first attack. So there's that.

If it were me, and I were hiking out after an attack with an empty can of spray, pretty sure I would have that pistol in hand and ready to go. But he didn't, which is odd, and got attacked again, and was again unable to deploy the pistol.

Not really second guessing Orr, he's hardcore and I have known about him even before this happened. But just to be clear: you're saying even though he failed to successfully use his pistol to repel either attack, he is now a proponent of pistol over bear spray?

You need to listen to his videos to get his explanations. What I recall is he said he simply hadn't holstered his gun for quick draw.

He admits that he never imagined there could be a second attack because he was just busting out of there - another lesson.

In his accounts he did not say that he advocates gun over spray or vice versa. Not sure what I said above that led you to think that. He only told about what happened to him. You best go to his videos and not rely on what I said he said. So far as I know he still carries spray and a gun. But not me - I would just get confused. Which is the point I was trying to make about this class - it is focused on you learning and and testing your learning under some staged stress, then deciding what will be effective for you.