BHA Supporting Legislation Outlawing the Sale of Information on Big Game Locations

[Netherman]

Just saw this [https://www.backcountryhunters.org/legislation_would_outlaw_selling_info_on_big_game_locations] today. I don't understand why this is something that BHA would be pushing. I think their ethics argument is laughable and even deceitful based on the outfitter exemption. It seems like they want you to believe that it is unethical to sell a GPS waypoint to a drainage with a good animal while it is perfectly ethical and "fair chase" to be guided to the same location and then shown the perfect position to shoot from.

I don't understand how this benefits BHA or its goals. I could see this helping guides and DIY hunters as this service seems to bridge the gap between the two. By outlawing this practice those with no time or knowledge for scouting would be pushed into guided hunts (good for guides). Because guided hunts are significantly more expensive than a scouting report those hunters may wait longer between hunts (good for DIY).

Am I missing something here? I think we would be much better served by BHA working towards the removal of guide requirements and clarifying/legalizing corner hopping. I think the removal of the guide restrictions in WY (wilderness areas) and AK (species requirements) directly align with their mission: "Backcountry Hunters & Anglers seeks to ensure North America's outdoor heritage of hunting and fishing in a natural setting, through education and work on behalf of wild public lands and waters."

 

[5MilesBack]

The government and the whole country has gone bat-crazy with what they want or expect these days. Just like Schumer and Warner wanting to legislate restrictions on how much company stock a company can buy back with their own money. Idiotic.

Now pushing for legislating a ban on selling information???? It's OK to give it away, but selling it is bad.

 

[Trial153]

It's good bill that reinforces the tenets of fair chase. Considering that part of our mission statement is to promote and protect fair chase hunting it makes total sense to support a state bill to that end.
Kudos to the Montana lawmakers that are being proactive on this issue..

It has support from Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks, the Montana Wildlife Federation, Back Country Hunters and Anglers and the Montana Bowhunters Association.

 

[Beendare]

Plus, BHA at odds and fighting with the Colorado Bowhunters organization......Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

Who are these hipsters anyway? Aren't they supposed to be supporting hunters?

I know there are a lot of supporters on BHA here, you might want to give that outfit a piece of your mind.

 

[jmez]

Agree with the OP. Can;t buy info on an area to go but can use a guide? Stupid.

 

[Jebuwh]

Ya know i commented either on here or another forum joking if buying waypoints like that would even be legal and kind of scoffed at it. But the more i think about it, really the more it makes sense. Why should a guide be legal, but not selling the info of hey go look over there for deer? I 100% agree that BHA should be working on eliminating guide requirements vs adding addl restrictions on things like this.

Poster above a couple there that says that this is in line with the tenets of fair chase... how? How is this different than a guide?

 

[cg2737]

I guess I am a bit confused as to the difference of paying for information and paying a guide. Both you receive help that as an out of town or state hunter you could not get on your own. I have a couple friends who paid for a scouting report of a unit and received a report including pictures for several basins. They went to said area and saw animals but no more than they had on prior trips. I have also had many friends go on guided hunts that had great success that there is no way they could have pulled it off on their own. Very interesting discussion.

I am a member of BHA and for the most part agree with their actions and stances.

 

[dirtytough]

It's good bill that reinforces the tenets of fair chase. Considering that part of our mission statement is to promote and protect fair chase hunting it makes total sense to support a state bill to that end.
Kudos to the Montana lawmakers that are being proactive on this issue..

It has support from Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks, the Montana Wildlife Federation, Back Country Hunters and Anglers and the Montana Bowhunters Association.

Can you explain how this isn't fair chase, but using a guide is? The article also states that its not fair to other hunters. So is it more fair to other hunters to use a guide so you have 2 sets of eyes looking for that animal instead of 1 set? The article is stupid the way it is written.

My take is that it commercializes hunting. Just like a hundred other things. But because it is so small BHA has the balls to take this issue on compared to taking on outfitting, go hunt, onX, huntinfool, etc. Then if one of the states does pass a law saying you can't sell the coordinates BHA will thump their chest and talk about all the good they do for wildlife and public lands.

 

[JWP58]

It's good bill that reinforces the tenets of fair chase. Considering that part of our mission statement is to promote and protect fair chase hunting it makes total sense to support a state bill to that end.
Kudos to the Montana lawmakers that are being proactive on this issue..

It has support from Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks, the Montana Wildlife Federation, Back Country Hunters and Anglers and the Montana Bowhunters Association.

I thought bha only takes a public stand on issues strictly about public land access?

 

[ODB]

Can you explain how this isn't fair chase, but using a guide is? The article also states that its not fair to other hunters. So is it more fair to other hunters to use a guide so you have 2 sets of eyes looking for that animal instead of 1 set? The article is stupid the way it is written.

My take is that it commercializes hunting. Just like a hundred other things. But because it is so small BHA has the balls to take this issue on compared to taking on outfitting, go hunt, onX, huntinfool, etc. Then if one of the states does pass a law saying you can't sell the coordinates BHA will thump their chest and talk about all the good they do for wildlife and public lands.

Man, your last sentence is spot-on. They really to coat-tail issues and overstate their effect on then outcome. “X states with bHA chapters protected public lands, etc.”. How many times have they said that??

 

[HookUp]

Outfitting is an industry that has been around 100+ years, selling your gps waypoints is a new fad that has popped up. Selling information on animal locations is clearly a technological advancement that is negative towards hunting.

I might have to join BHA. How much intrusion do you want on hunting? That new Hunt service that lets you access trail cams pics for a service fee is really heading down the wrong path. Glad to see BHA taking a stand.

 

[KurtR]

its an electronic guide no difference . It shows you where animals were seen a person still has to find them

 

[dirtytough]

Outfitting is an industry that has been around 100+ years, selling your gps waypoints is a new fad that has popped up. Selling information on animal locations is clearly a technological advancement that is negative towards hunting.

I might have to join BHA. How much intrusion do you want on hunting? That new Hunt service that lets you access trail cams pics for a service fee is really heading down the wrong path. Glad to see BHA taking a stand.

It has nothing to do with technology. I could drive to a trail head, hike in 5 miles and find an animal. Then I could sell it and circle a map. Maps, markers, and boots have been around a long time. So is that ok as long as I don't use a gps?

Because outfitting has been around for 100+ years its ok. But something that helps a hunter less then a guide isn't ok because its new? wow just wow


I'm not saying that scouting packages should or should not be legal. But if outfitting is legal and fair chase I just can't comprehend how someone can be a hypocrite and say a scouting package isn't fair chase and should be made illegal.

 

[wyodan]

The difference between GPS waypoints vs guiding is that you’re paying for information instead of the service provided. It seems to me that there is no longer putting boots on the ground to find your own animal and the effort behind that.

I guess I think about it like this. Imagine if you’re a guy that puts in his time scouting all summer, it gets to the season, and there’s somebody sitting there who just paid for the location. They didn’t put in the work, they just had the right amount of money.

I think it’s a good bill. IMO there’s just too much emphasis on the antlers anymore. Without that, selling coords isn’t even a business.

 

[chasewild]

I'm totally confused by this thread.

Selling way points? Are you kidding me? Is there ANYONE on here that would openly admit to "buying" the location of an animal? Is there anyone that would start a thread on here that begins "check out the monster I didn't find, didn't scout for, but purchased using an app!!" No. There isn't.

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I'm 1,000 percent behind BHA on this one. Guys that come on here and say "I don't want your honey hole, but where are your honey holes" are universally derided but somehow BHA is now an organization of "hipsters" because BHA supports legislation that would support the exact same premise.

And don't give me the "outfitters are analogous" bull shit. Wildlife are held in trust for the people. Mule deer, elk, and sheep are not commodities and outfitters are not selling a commodity -- they provide a service. MOreover, outfitters are licensed, regulated, and "taxed."

So ya, call me a hipster but I'm pretty sure the only hipsters on this thread are the ones arguing that trading wildlife like private stock actually works within the basic framework of federal wildlife law.

 

[dirtytough]

The difference between GPS waypoints vs guiding is that you’re paying for information instead of the service provided. It seems to me that there is no longer putting boots on the ground to find your own animal and the effort behind that.

I guess I think about it like this. Imagine if you’re a guy that puts in his time scouting all summer, it gets to the season, and there’s somebody sitting there who just paid for the location. They didn’t put in the work, they just had the right amount of money.

I think it’s a good bill. IMO there’s just too much emphasis on the antlers anymore. Without that, selling coords isn’t even a business.

Kind of like the guy that paid an outfitter so he and his horse are sitting there along with a guide after you put in your time? Honestly whats the difference besides the guy that uses a guide gets a heck of a lot more help then a scouting package gives you?

 

[Poser]

its an electronic guide no difference . It shows you where animals were seen a person still has to find them

I suppose you could point out that guide services are regulated to varying extents.
If you call selling coordinates guiding, then regulate how many “guides” can operate in an area and have them be licensed and bonded where required THEN it is an equatable scenario, otherwise, there is guiding and there is some person with GPS coordinates for sell.

 

[S.Clancy]

I'm totally confused by this thread.

Selling way points? Are you kidding me? Is there ANYONE on here that would openly admit to "buying" the location of an animal? Is there anyone that would start a thread on here that begins "check out the monster I didn't find, didn't scout for, but purchased using an app!!" No. There isn't.

View this content on Instagram

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I'm 1,000 percent behind BHA on this one. Guys that come on here and say "I don't want your honey hole, but where are your honey holes" are universally derided but somehow BHA is now an organization of "hipsters" because BHA supports legislation that would support the exact same premise.

And don't give me the "outfitters are analogous" bull shit. Wildlife are held in trust for the people. Mule deer, elk, and sheep are not commodities and outfitters are not selling a commodity -- they provide a service. MOreover, outfitters are licensed, regulated, and "taxed."

So ya, call me a hipster but I'm pretty sure the only hipsters on this thread are the ones arguing that trading wildlife like private stock actually works within the basic framework of federal wildlife law.

Yup

 

[PNWTO]

I’m with BHA.

It isn’t in the spirit of Fair Chase and undercuts traditional outfitting and guiding.

Plus, unlike guide services, I can’t see how this can be regulated by land managers so there could be an increase of people out there, creating impact, just to spot an animal and call themselves legitimate.

Guides are regulated and pay a fee to land managers. Shit like this is a slippery slope and evidence we all need to help update Fair Chase concepts in the digital age.

 

[ODB]

I'm totally confused by this thread.

Selling way points? Are you kidding me? Is there ANYONE on here that would openly admit to "buying" the location of an animal? Is there anyone that would start a thread on here that begins "check out the monster I didn't find, didn't scout for, but purchased using an app!!" No. There isn't.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

I'm 1,000 percent behind BHA on this one. Guys that come on here and say "I don't want your honey hole, but where are your honey holes" are universally derided but somehow BHA is now an organization of "hipsters" because BHA supports legislation that would support the exact same premise.

And don't give me the "outfitters are analogous" bull shit. Wildlife are held in trust for the people. Mule deer, elk, and sheep are not commodities and outfitters are not selling a commodity -- they provide a service. MOreover, outfitters are licensed, regulated, and "taxed."

So ya, call me a hipster but I'm pretty sure the only hipsters on this thread are the ones arguing that trading wildlife like private stock actually works within the basic framework of federal wildlife law.

That’s some tap dance on service/commodity.

Selling a dot on a map is also a service; it guarantees less than the guide. The animal likely won’t be where the dot is, but I’d bet the guide knows the locations of the animals on a day to day basis better than the dot. Which is more fair chase at the end of the day, A shot in the dark, or having your hand held all the way? Frankly, I’d be willing to bet a guy who buys a dot will actually work harder since he’s likely unfamiliar with the area, decreasing his chances.

And for the record, I’d never buy a dot on a map and think anyone who would is a moron. But hey, que sera sera...