Biden announces proposed gun control measures

[204guy]

@rsimo555 isn't worth engaging here guys. Look at his post history, clearly not here to discuss hunting or shooting.

 

[cacklercrazy]

As more and more time goes by the rest of the Country becomes more like California. And I think harder about leaving. California gets worse and worse than the country becomes more like California, though. So, it seems.

Has anyone else noticed that the more educated these people are the big the idiots they are.

 

[BjornF16]

There's a bunch of Rino's that need it, they've become way too liberal and way too comfortable in their positions.

It's like military officers.......they all seem to start out as logical thinking folks and then every move upward they get sent off to new reprogramming schools and training and come back brainwashed. About the time all that starts to wear off and they're coming back to normal, they get sent off to another reprogramming and the cycle continues. By the time they reach flag ranks, it's too late for them.......there's no hope......they're fully gone. I know.......I was one. But I'm so stubborn their reprogramming attempts failed on me. But then you get to a point where it's just not all that much fun being around illogical zombies, so it's time to punch out. A similar thing happens in Congress with their longevity.

I never saw it this way, but your experience may be completely different.

My perspective is that it is more of a filter. Up to the rank of O-4 or O-5, it is a combination of merit and politics. As you rise above these ranks, politics plays a more important role. Not only "local" politics, but flag officers promotions are affected by who's in the WH. Thus a large number of uber liberal jerk flag officers from Obama's time in office.

How does this tie into the OP?

 

[BjornF16]

Here are just a few, if I was in front of my computer I could fill up multiple pages of quotes for you..

"If I could have banned them all - 'Mr. and Mrs. America turn in your guns' - I would have!"
- Diane Feinstein


"I don't care if you want to hunt, I don't care if you think it's your right. I say 'Sorry.' it's 1999. We have had enough as a nation. You are not allowed to own a gun, and if you do own a gun I think you should go to prison."
- Rosie O'Donnell


"I don’t believe people should to be able to own guns.”
- Barack Obama


William Clay, U.S. Representative from Missouri

” …we need much stricter gun control, and eventually should bar the ownership of handguns”

Joseph Biden, Vice President of the United States

"Banning guns is an idea whose time has come.”

Bobby Rush, U.S. Representative from Illinois

“My staff and I right now are working on a comprehensive gun-control bill. We don’t have all the details, but for instance, regulating the sale and purchase of bullets. Ultimately, I would like to see the manufacture and possession of handguns banned except for military and police use. But that’s the endgame. And in the meantime, there are some specific things that we can do with legislation.”

Michael Gardner, President of NBC News

“There is no reason for anyone in this country … to buy, to own, to have, to use a handgun …The only way to control handgun use in this country is to prohibit the guns.” 37

“In fact, only police, soldiers — and, maybe, licensed target ranges — should have handguns. No one else needs one.”

Jack E. White, Time Magazine national correspondent

“Why not just ban the ownership of handguns when nobody needs one? Why not just ban semi-automatic rifles? Nobody needs one.”


Gary Wills, syndicated columnist

“Every civilized society must disarm its citizens against each other.”


Janet Reno, former U.S. attorney general

“The most effective means of fighting crime in the United States is to outlaw the possession of any type of firearm by the civilian populace.”


George Napper, Atlanta public-safety commissioner

“If I had my druthers, the only people who would have guns would be those who enforce the law.”

It would be nice if you added links to where the quote is reported...adds to legitimacy of the post

 

[BjornF16]

Here's one you can prove, way back from 1993. From none other than Ronald Reagan.
"While we recognize that assault weapon legislation will not stop all assault weapon crime, statistics prove that we can dry up supply of these guns, making hem less acceptable to criminals. We urge you to listen to the American public and to the law enforcement community and support then and on further manufacture of these weapons."

That was a letter that he, Carter, and Ford sent to the house in 1993 in support of the assualt weapons ban that was successfully put into law. I think there was some significant bipartisan support on that but I could be misremembering.

Hard to say what will happen. I'd guess Sleepy joe will break the "guns sold over 1 term" record that Obama set. Because remember, Obama was going to take all of your guns too. I'm still waiting for that to happen. He supported some things that I bet most people in this forum are against, not because they are super aggressive but because many of us don't want to give an inch. But if I remember correctly, Reagan and Carter would've been doing far more "infringing" than Obama even talked about doing.

The democrats talk of gun control is certainly worrisome. But it's also talk, we all know politians say whatever they need to get elected. You would certainly think they will try to get something through.... one thing we need to make sure we do is stand fast and stay clear headed. I really don't believe going crazy will be the answer. It's not tyranny if you're driving your 60k pick up to the gun store to fill out a universal background check for your 2k rifle and 2k optic to go on top of it. You might not like it, but the couple hundred million people who died of real tyranny would gladly trade places with you.

We know people who use guns to kill people don't follow laws and won't follow gun laws either. The best thing gun owners can be imo is rational and clear eyed. Obviously, there is a line in the sand on this issue. I'll know it when I see it.

I remember this event distinctly.

It is important to understand that at the time of this letter, Reagan was suffering from dementia.

This letter was a significant departure from Reagan's previous stances on gun control. One wonders if he actually comprehended what he was signing or if it was just stuck in front of him by one of his "handlers".

 

[5MilesBack]

Tyranny looks and smells like millions and millions of dead bodies. Dead bodies from execution, dead bodies from famine through collectivization of Ag. We have something to point at and say "hey that's what that looks like".

Tyranny is NOT "a functioning constitution-abiding government one day, and the next day there's millions of bodies laying in the street". That's not how it works. We're seeing how it works in plain sight.........bit by bit by bit. But most sheep......I mean people......for whatever reason just don't see those small changes as they happen.......until it's too late. And then they say "what happened"? SMH

 

[PA Hunter]

He can go f himself.

 

[5MilesBack]

I never saw it this way, but your experience may be completely different.

My perspective is that it is more of a filter. Up to the rank of O-4 or O-5, it is a combination of merit and politics. As you rise above these ranks, politics plays a more important role. Not only "local" politics, but flag officers promotions are affected by who's in the WH. Thus a large number of uber liberal jerk flag officers from Obama's time in office.

How does this tie into the OP?

Oh it's definitely political all the way up, no doubt about that. But there are different types and levels of politics in everything......even hunting. I used to laugh and joke about the reprogramming with guys I knew from the beginning, but eventually it wasn't all that funny as I could clearly see the long term effects on them. To see how it all ties in, you have to follow the entire thread to see the context. If everything has to tie into the OP directly, there wouldn't be a discussion at all.

 

[brocksw]

I remember this event distinctly.

It is important to understand that at the time of this letter, Reagan was suffering from dementia.

This letter was a significant departure from Reagan's previous stances on gun control. One wonders if he actually comprehended what he was signing or if it was just stuck in front of him by one of his "handlers".

He announced he had alzheimers in Nov of 1994. While I'm sure he was "symptomatic" well before then, I think it might be a stretch to say that he lost his faculties to the point where he had no idea what he was saying or signing a year or more before Nov of 1994. There was talk of him having dimentia while he was president. But it seems to be unverifiable rumor. It's also possible that in coming to terms with his own mortality that he changed some of his stances. My Grandfather is what I like to call a "thoroughbred Republican". He just turned 81 and very recently changed his stance on health care, he now supports single payer healthcare or some system that gives everyone access to health care. This is also a significant departure from his previous stance. He's still sharp as a tack.

A statement from his medical team sent to the Reagan Library on that same day in 1994:
"Over the past twelve months we began to notice from President Reagan’s test results symptoms indicating the possibility of early stage Alzheimer’s Disease. Additional testing and an extensive observation over the past few weeks have led us to conclude that President Reagan is entering the early stages of this disease.
Although his health is otherwise good, it is expected that as the years go on it will begin to deteriorate...".

 

[BjornF16]

Just saying semi autos with high capacity mags (ARs) are less of a necessity for the average person/hunter.

First, the 2A wasn't part of the Bill of Rights in order to protect hunting. A quick read of debate summaries, Federalist Papers, Anti-Federalist papers, SCOTUS decisions and newspaper clippings would substantiate this.

Second, AR-15s make great self-defense/home defense guns. Something that was one of the primary reasons for 2A.

I didn't compile this list, I'm just sharing.

From: http://jpfo.org/articles-assd03/scotus-2a-decisions.htm

Supreme Court Rulings relevant to a Free People

The Supreme Court ruled that it had the power to overturn and/or control laws of Congress with the ruling written by the great Chief Justice John Marshall, which simply said: "All laws repugnant to the Constitution are null and void."
Marbury v. Madison, 1803 5 US 137

The Supreme Court decided that a slave could not be a citizen because if he were a citizen, he would be entitled to enjoy all the rights which American citizens enjoy by reason of their citizenship, rights which the "courts would be bound to maintain and enforce," including the rights "to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went."
Scott v. Sandford, 1857 60 US 691, 705

"The people's right to bear arms, like the rights of assembly and petition, existed long before the Constitution, and is not "in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence." This ruling also upheld that all able bodied males are members of the militia (one of three such clear rulings).
U.S. v. Cruikshank, 1876 92 US 542, 553

"All citizens capable of bearing arms constitute the reserve militia, and the states cannot prohibit the people from keeping and bearing arms so as to disable the people from performing the (militia) duty to the general government."
Presser v. Illinois, 1886 116 US 252

"Individuals have a right to possess and use firearms for self-defense."
U.S. v. Beard, 1895 158 US 550

In 1897 the Supreme Court ruled that the right to arms is an "ancient" and "fundamental" right, a right which was "inherited from our English ancestors" and has existed "from time Immemorial."
Robertson v. Baldwin, 1897 165 US 275

The Supreme Court ruled that that by implication even resident aliens have the right to possess "weapons such as pistols that may be supposed to be needed occasionally for self-defense."
Patsone v. Pennsylvania, 1914 232 US 138

The Supreme Court decided that a person facing a deadly attack may use lethal force in his self-defense, adding "Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presense of an uplifted knife."
U.S. v. Brown, 1921 256 US 335

The Supreme Court stated that, the great and essential rights of the people are secured against legislative as well as against executive ambition. They are secured, not by laws paramount to prerogative, but by constitutions paramount to laws." (Chief Justice Hughes quoting James Madison).
Near v. Minnesota, 1931 283 US 697, 714

"The militia is comprised of all able bodied males ... ordinarily when called these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of a kind in common (military) use at the time."
U.S. v. Miller, 1939 307 US 174

In a first amendment case involving freedom of the press and religion, the Supreme Court ruled "The power to impose a license fee on a constitutional right amounts to prior restraint and the power to restrict or deny the right ... a tax laid specifically on the exercise of these freedoms would be unconstitutional."
Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 1943 319 US 105

The Supreme Court ruled that "The United States is entirely a creature of the Constitution. Its power and authority have no other source. It can only act in accordance with all the limitations imposed by the Constitution."
Reid v. Covert, 1957 354 US 1

Strangely, the Supreme Court has ruled that a convicted felon is exempt from obeying gun registration laws, that a "proper claim of the constitutional privilege against self-incrimination provides a full defense to prosecutions either for failure to register a firearm ... or for possession of an unregistered firearm."
U.S. v. Hayes, 1968 390 US 85

The Supreme Court has twice ruled that a federal official who deprives a citizen of a right guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution may be held personally liable for damages.
Bivens v. Six Unknown Federal Agents of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, 1971
403 US 388 / Carlson v. Green, 1980 446 US 14

The Supreme Court ruled that a person enjoys a fundamental right to possess arms until his first conviction for a felony offense.
U.S. v. Lewis, 1980 445 US 95

"Police have no duty to protect any individual, but only a general duty to protect society, and cannot be held personally liable for failure to protect an individual."
South v. Maryland, 1855 / Warren v. District of Columbia, 1981
"The term "the people" as explicitly used in the Second Amendment and elsewhere in the Constitution and Bill of Rights is a term chosen by the Founding Fathers to mean all individuals who make up our national community." U.S. v. Verdugo Urquidez, 1990 No. 88-1353

The Supreme Court has ruled that a state official who, "under color of state law," deprives a citizen of a right guaranteed by the federal Constitution may be held personally liable for damages.
Hafer v. Melo, 1991 No. 90-681

And so that none can be mistaken, the Supreme Court has ruled seven times in the 20th century (plus one concurring opinion) that the first eight amendments express fundamental personal rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

Twining v. New Jersey, 1908 211 US 78
Powell v. Alabama, 1932 287 US 45
Grosjean v. American Press Co., 1936 297 US 233
Gideon v. Wainwright, 1963 372 US 335
Duncan v. Louisiana, 1968 391 US 166
Moore v. East Cleveland, 1976 431 US 494
Planned Parenthood v. Casey, 1992 No. 91-744
Griswold v. Connecticut, 1965 (concurring) 381 US 479

The Supreme Court ruled that public housing tenants in Maine cannot be barred from keeping guns in their homes. 10/2/1995

The United States Supreme Court held that the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution protects an individual's right to possess a firearm for private use in federal enclaves. It was the first Supreme Court case in U.S. history to decide whether the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms for self defense.

On June 26, 2008, the Supreme Court affirmed the Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit in Heller v. District of Columbia. The Court of Appeals had struck down provisions of the Firearms Control Regulations Act of 1975 as unconstitutional, determined that handguns are "arms" for the purposes of the Second Amendment, found that the District of Columbia's regulations act was an unconstitutional banning, and struck down the portion of the regulations act that requires all firearms including rifles and shotguns be kept "unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock" "Prior to this decision the Firearms Control Regulation Act of 1975 also restricted residents from owning handguns except for those registered prior to 1975"
District of Columbia v Heller, 2008 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

Supreme Court affirmed that the 14th Amendment incorporates the 2nd Amendment, meaning that 2nd Amendment applies to the States equally as Federal government. McDonald v. Chicago, 2010 561 U.S 742 (2010)

 

[BjornF16]

18th Century lexicon​

From Noah Webster's 1824 American Dictionary of English Language:

bear - To carry; to convey; to support and remove from place to place; as, 'they bear him upon the shoulder; ', 'the eagle beareth them on her wings.'

arms - 1. Weapons of offense, or armor for defense and protection of the body. 2. In law, arms are any thing which a man takes in his hand in anger, to strike or assault another. A stand of arms consists of a musket, bayonet, cartridge-box and belt, with a sword. But for common soldiers a sword is not necessary.

ordnance - noun [from ordinance.] Cannon or great guns, mortars and howitzers; artillery.

firearms - noun plural Arms or weapons which expel their charge by the combustion of powder, as pistols, muskets, etc

pistol - noun A small fire-arm, or the smallest fire-arm used, differing from a musket chiefly in size. Pistols are of different lengths, and borne by horsemen in cases at the saddle bow, or by a girdle. Small pistols are carried in the pocket.

infringe - 1. To break, as contracts; to violate, either positively by contravention, or negatively by non-fulfillment or neglect of performance. A prince or a private person infringes an agreement or covenant by neglecting to perform its conditions, as well as by doing what is stipulated not to be done. 2. To break; to violate; to transgress; to neglect to fulfill or obey; as, to infringe a law.

"If the citizens neglect their Duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted; laws will be made, not for the public good so much as for selfish or local purposes; corrupt or incompetent men will be appointed to execute the Laws; the public revenues will be squandered on unworthy men; and the rights of the citizen will be violated or disregarded."

 

[brocksw]

Tyranny is NOT "a functioning constitution-abiding government one day, and the next day there's millions of bodies laying in the street". That's not how it works. We're seeing how it works in plain sight.........bit by bit by bit. But most sheep......I mean people......for whatever reason just don't see those small changes as they happen.......until it's too late. And then they say "what happened"? SMH

You know its a funny thing, not to make light of the holocaust. I'm a bit addicted to history when it comes to comparing today to yesterday. I've been doing a lot of reading lately about Nazi conspiracy theories. How the Nazis used conspiracy to hurt their opposition, take power, keep power, impose ideology on Germans. They literally used it to get your everday Germans to kill Jews. Some scholars say it was the primary weapon of the Nazi Party. When you read about those conspiracy theories, it sounds more similar to our modern day right wing extremist listening to alex jones than it does anyone on the left.

I would also point out that nearly every instance of tyranny that we read about in the history books happened relatively quickly. In a matter of a few years or less.

I suppose you don't have to take my word for it, it's all out there in the air waves waiting to be read.

 

[BjornF16]

Reading the SCOTUS decisions is pretty interesting.

The 1824 American Dictionary of English Language (Noah Webster) captures the language of the Constitution (and earlier American documents).

Another great book that investigates the issues and debates leading to 2A (and includes various state convention discussions on same) is: The Founders' Second Amendment: Origins of the Right to Bear Arms

Why is researching the debates that frame the Constitution and Bill of Rights important? Because those debates show the intent of Founders and is relevant to decisions by the Judicial Branch, even though some may say that only the printed words matter.

(from Supreme Court decision in U.S. v. Verdugo Urquidez, 1990 No. 88-1353) emphasis added:

• (c) The Fourth Amendment's drafting history shows that its purpose was to protect the people of the United States against arbitrary action by their own Government and not to restrain the Federal Government's actions against aliens outside United States territory. Nor is there any indication that the Amendment was understood by the Framers' contemporaries to apply to United States activities directed against aliens in foreign territory or in international waters. Pp. 266-268.

Federalists argument was Bill of Rights were unnecessary because it was inferred (either by limiting the power of federal government to delegated authorities - which, btw, was terribly naive, or the populace would rise up in arms).

Anti-Federalists argument was Bill of Rights were necessary because governments are made up of men, who are inherently corrupt (cynical, yet completely true and born out by history).

The Federalist v Anti-Federalist debates raged in half the states' conventions as well. In the states that actually had meaningful discussions on 2A, there were three main reasons given for the right to bear arms: 1. Self defense; 2. Defense of community/state/country (to include against oppressive government); 3. Hunting

For nearly the first hundred years, there really wasn't much disagreement on what 2A meant. The first SCOTUS case directly on 2A was in 1876 (Cruikshank).

 

[BjornF16]

My point is, we can't cry tyranny over every gun discussion. Tyranny looks and smells like millions and millions of dead bodies. Dead bodies from execution, dead bodies from famine through collectivization of Ag. We have something to point at and say "hey that's what that looks like".

Preventing people with arrest warrants from buying guns isn't it. Maybe universal background checks isn't either. Somewhere in there is a line. It might be different for all of us.

registering the gun might've been a pain. But you're still alive. That's not a call for nation wide gun registration. That's just making sure we're looking at the big picture and properly identifying "tyranny".

I strongly disagree. So do dictionaries

Definition of TYRANNY

oppressive power; especially : oppressive power exerted by government; a government in which absolute power is vested in a single ruler; especially : one characteristic of an ancient Greek city-state; the office, authority, and administration of a tyrant… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

1: oppressive power every form of tyranny over the mind of man— Thomas Jeffersonespecially : oppressive power exerted by government the tyranny of a police state

2a: a government in which absolute power is vested in a single rulerespecially : one characteristic of an ancient Greek city-state
b: the office, authority, and administration of a tyrant

3: a rigorous condition imposed by some outside agency or force living under the tyranny of the clock— Dixon Wecter

4: an oppressive, harsh, or unjust act : a tyrannical act workers who had suffered tyrannies

 

[452b264]

It's not tyranny if you're driving your 60k pick up to the gun store to fill out a universal background check

Buried in the universal back round check bill is a registry for all firearm purchases, it also with prevent you from loaning a firearm to anyone. Your out hunting with family and friends and his/her firearm malfunctions so you loan them your back up rifle/shotgun both of you just became felons. With a registry they will know what you own and where to find it, so when they deem necessary they can take them. That bill will not lower crime it will only effect the law abiding. This bill has failed to get through congress a couple of times as it has been deemed un-constitutional. For those of you who have not actually read this bill I would suggest you take the time to do so before you cast a vote.

 

[mmw194287]

California's ban on open carry and transporting loaded weapons was passed under Reagan, who told reporters, “ I do not know of any sportsman who leaves his home with a gun to go out into the field to hunt or for target shooting who carries that gun loaded.”

See “Reagan Signs Loaded Gun Bill into Law,” Los Angeles Times (July 29, 1967), A2

 

[Okhotnik]

I read like 3 posts on this thread and what came to mind is..

Paranoia = characterized by delusions of persecution, unwarranted jealousy, or exaggerated self importance. It may be a aspect of chronic personality disorder, drug abuse, or a serious condition such as schizophrenia in which a person looses touch w reality....

I got the same number of ar’z laying in my gun case that I had before Obama was inaugurated. Maybe shot them 2x in the past 15 years..

OR I am willing to bet anyone on this thread a case of beer the good old govt takes 0 in the next 4 years.

Real payin bet. Any takers??

sure case of beer that there will be more anti gun laws in the US the next 4 years, you on?

 

[brocksw]

I strongly disagree. So do dictionaries

Definition of TYRANNY

oppressive power; especially : oppressive power exerted by government; a government in which absolute power is vested in a single ruler; especially : one characteristic of an ancient Greek city-state; the office, authority, and administration of a tyrant… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

1: oppressive power every form of tyranny over the mind of man— Thomas Jeffersonespecially : oppressive power exerted by government the tyranny of a police state

2a: a government in which absolute power is vested in a single rulerespecially : one characteristic of an ancient Greek city-state
b: the office, authority, and administration of a tyrant

3: a rigorous condition imposed by some outside agency or force living under the tyranny of the clock— Dixon Wecter

4: an oppressive, harsh, or unjust act : a tyrannical act workers who had suffered tyrannies

Your argument would work for seatbelts and stop signs too. Which is funny, because there was literally protests against seatbelts and people calling the government Tyrannical because of seatbelt laws. It was eerily similar to the mask stuff going on the past year. But it's rather ironic because seat belt laws were one of Bob Dole's signature accomplishments as transportation secretary under who else...Ronald Reagan. God, this Reagan guy spoke a lot about small government and freedoms but he sure was involved in taking a lot of our freedoms away.
"State Sen. Salvatore Albano echoed that argument in slightly more blunt terms, saying those opposing seat belt laws wanted “the right to be splattered all over their windshields.”

There's a old picture floating around of a kid sticking a fork into a electrical plug in. And it says, "Don't tell me what to do, I got rights".

Everything is not tyranny. We remain vigilant, use common sense, make an effort not to make decision based on fear and paranoia, and make sure we keep our head above water so we can see what's around us. As history has proven, extremism on the right or left leads to the same thing....lots of people die.

 

[brocksw]

Buried in the universal back round check bill is a registry for all firearm purchases, it also with prevent you from loaning a firearm to anyone.

Could you provide a screenshot of the text in the bill to share with the forum?

 

[brocksw]

sure case of beer that there will be more anti gun laws in the US the next 4 years, you on?

That get proposed or passed? State level or federal level?

There was more talk of Gun laws during Obama's terms but to my knowkedge on the fed level there was only 2 laws passed. 1st allowed you to carry in a national park. 2nd allowed you to pack a gun into your checked luggage on an amtrak, I believe. Both signed off by Obama. To my knowledge, that is the complete list of federal gun laws passed under Obama. Trump's record doesn't look as good as that.

With that being said, I'm unlikely to take you up on your bet. I don't trust this adminstration or any other for that matter, enough to do any betting. Everything with these idiots is play it by ear.