After I read Dwight Schuh's "Open Country Mule Deer Hunting" in the 90s and getting a master's in civil engineering, I "thought" I was an expert at getting useful information from biologists and civil engineering professors, one on one. Some states seem to have fantastic biologists. Montana biologists have been very, very helpful and responsive. Arizona too. What I struggle with, is biologists that don't respond to voicemails or emails? Or a very, very rare few that seem lazy or incompetent, like California. Other than being patient, what are some ideas for getting through to biologists that aren't responsive? I mean don't respond to emails or voicemails? How can I endear myself with these folks? : )
Biologists, the good, the bad, and the ugly
- Thread starter Billinsd
- Start date
ckbailey97
FNG
Run into the same problem. Only luck I’ve had is looking elsewhere, or calling. I know this sounds nuts, but my son was doing a research project, and had a heck of a time getting ahold of a guy. Finally started calling him, and just got lucky one day and caught him. Guy was super nice, but busy, and they scheduled a time to call back and he gave my son an hour of his time, and more folks to call, even one guy he could meet and do some research with. It wasn’t easy though.
- Thread Starter
- #3
The obvious answer is to just hunt in Montana and Arizona, and Idaho is pretty good. However, I want to hunt other Western states. I don't expect coordinates to honey holes. Just some answers to general questions, like general hunting pressure, general herd health, access to ranges, stuff they should know, since I'm unconnected and usually solo. Montana and Arizona biologits bend over backwards to provide this kind of information. Idaho was really, really bad in the 90s, and now their biologists seem very helpful. It seems like it's a regional, management on down kinda thing?
805Bowhunter
WKR
- Joined
- May 8, 2017
- Messages
- 674
This is a really good thread/topic. I have had similar issues where some are very quick to call you back and others never return a call. I have learned to assume that the person you are dealing with is likely overworked and underpaid. While this may not be the case always, I find that treating the situation this way will give you more patience as well as not being snappy when you finally do get the biologist on the phone.
The biologist I spent a lot of time talking to this past year (in Wyoming) had a tone where he was almost defensive off the bat. When I started off saying how appreciative I was of his time, he immediately changed tone and was very willing to help out.
It is a case by case situation though I feel. Biologists in CA are very overworked and dealing with a department that is not very supportive and often times the biologist is working not knowing if their job is going to be there next year. Not making excuses for poor people skills, just stating a fact that may help you navigate what the person on the other end of the line is dealing with.
I've also found that starting early calls helps drastically. This year I started calling the Wyo biologist in Feb/March after I found out that I drew the tag. While, depending on the state, this is not always possible, it certainly helps.
The biologist I spent a lot of time talking to this past year (in Wyoming) had a tone where he was almost defensive off the bat. When I started off saying how appreciative I was of his time, he immediately changed tone and was very willing to help out.
It is a case by case situation though I feel. Biologists in CA are very overworked and dealing with a department that is not very supportive and often times the biologist is working not knowing if their job is going to be there next year. Not making excuses for poor people skills, just stating a fact that may help you navigate what the person on the other end of the line is dealing with.
I've also found that starting early calls helps drastically. This year I started calling the Wyo biologist in Feb/March after I found out that I drew the tag. While, depending on the state, this is not always possible, it certainly helps.
- Thread Starter
- #5
I figure the guys are probably real busy. I don't want to tick them off or ask their supervisor why they won't respond. Yes, just call and not leave messages. Sounds good.
- Thread Starter
- #6
Middleofnowhere
WKR
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2017
- Messages
- 754
I work with plenty of government types through work and volunteer/conservation. Communication varies by individual.
California seems to encourage gov’t incompetence though...
California seems to encourage gov’t incompetence though...
Dos Perros
WKR
Something I've learned: biologists are like college professors. What they really want to do is research, and get it published. That's how they distinguish themselves from their peers and move their careers. Teaching undergrad classes, or in this case dealing with the public, is just something they have to do.
jspradley
WKR
Biologists also tend not to be "people-people" which is why they work with animals.
My wife is a biologist (not of the wildlife type) and most of our friends are as well, they are all very... unique... people.
Tim Ferris has good advice on cold emailing.
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/314465
Respect the person's time, the fact that they are likely extremely busy, especially this time of year with randos left and right hitting them up to be their hunting advisor and ask very specific questions
My wife is a biologist (not of the wildlife type) and most of our friends are as well, they are all very... unique... people.
Tim Ferris has good advice on cold emailing.
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/314465
Respect the person's time, the fact that they are likely extremely busy, especially this time of year with randos left and right hitting them up to be their hunting advisor and ask very specific questions
Huntindog45
WKR
so i have some background working with biologists in california. Many work out of a home office, many dont get to their emails or phones even for days at a time and honestly most probably couldnt help you much unless you happen to get the one big game bio who is tasked with managing the area you are interested in. Their district likely covers multiple counties. They likely work 70 hours a week, get paid for 40 and ... many of them are damn good wildlife bios who hunt, fish and would love to help you. Many of them are not. they are all over worked responding to the tasks they should be working on and the idiocy that is the california public. The big game bios are completely swamped with bear issues right now. They just dont have much time.
K
Kootenay Hunter
Guest
I'd be more worried if every time I e-mailed I got a response back quickly.
Good Bios should be in the field, not answering phone calls in an office.
Good Bios should be in the field, not answering phone calls in an office.
amassi
WKR
- Joined
- May 26, 2018
- Messages
- 3,658
Most all western states have info for each zone or gmu with all the info you could want. The people that build those sheets are busy out compiling info for future sheets. Any other info you could possibly need can be gleaned with gas and glass.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
SWOHTR
WKR
Might try calling on a Friday afternoon, but not too late (like 2-ish). I’ve had luck with that.
It does. And to make it worst the natural resource (DFG included) industry is politically controlled. They are not motivated by money from hunters and fisherman. If anything they are anti. But I agree with what others have said about other states. Ihave dealt with Wyoming, CO, ID. All top notch.
I'm a research biologist for a state game agency, and will do my best to give you guys an insiders perspective.
Most of us here in the outfit I work for are hunters and to an individual, we all like to see guys working hard and being successful with their hunts.
We'd also far rather talk hunting than writing/editing reports, budgeting, whatever, but we do have to pay the bills. But given the chance, we genuinely enjoy talking with hunters.
There's some VERY solid advice in the thread above. And, as a couple guys noted, we all got into this business to be outside, so we try to maximize our field time. When we do get back to the office, we're scrambling trying to get caught up with all the 'housekeeping' stuff as well as answer emails and phone calls.
Here are a couple things I'd suggest and some perspective I can offer. Hopefully this will help you get the most out of your effort and make the most out of the time we have to work together to make your trip successful. It might even save ME some time!
1. If you have waited until right before (or worse yet, during) hunting season, you are too late-
This time of year, I usually get between three and five calls and/or emails a day looking for information. I'll do my level best to answer each and every one of them, and help guys out, but like I mentioned, there are other things on my plate too. Also, remember it's hunting season and we're all trying to get out ourselves.
2. Call early in the year-or even right after hunting season ends (more on this later)-
In our agency, right after seasons close through January, and April and May are slow times. Call us then and we will have more time to talk. By late May and into June, some of us are starting to deal with nuisance wildlife calls, then the fiscal year ends June 30 and reports are due. July and August is survey season, the snow is out of the high country and a lot of time is spent flying and counting critters. Long story short, if you call me earlier in the year, I'll have more time to talk.
3. It can be really effective if you email first to set up a time to call-
I try to plan my weekly schedule around fieldwork, flights, etc. This way I can dedicate an entire day or two to phone calls and email. For example, if I have you down for 10:00-10:30 on Thursday, you're going to get that entire time block rather than if I pick up the phone on my way out the door.
Also, it's perfectly OK to ask if you can contact us again after we're finished with surveys for the year. In fact, I'll often tell a caller to get back in touch with me right after we're done with survey work and just before the season opens to see if there's anything notable that we observed during our summer flights. But remember that the pre-season time window is tight for us and while we might have time for a five or ten minute update, we probably won't have time for a detailed hour-long conversation then.
4. Do your homework -
I'm far more likely to engage and spend time with a caller that's obviously put in some time doing background research. I know a lot of guys come from out of state to hunt, so on-the-ground knowledge isn't critical. But, if you have already looked at the online material, some of your easy questions might already be answered. Then, we can spend more time on interesting, new information and you might even get a gem or two that wouldn't have come up if we were just talking about the basics.
4. Have specific questions - or even have a proposed hunt plan-
Again, if a caller says 'where can I go to kill a buck that scores XXX, or a YYY bull, or a ZZZ ram?' They are likely going to get a very generic answer. I'll probably say something like 'Well, Unit ABC has been producing some nice animals lately". FYI, Unit ABC is probably the size of a small Northeastern state. Maybe two small Northeastern states
But, if you are able to say "I was looking at Nunydambizness Mountain on Google Earth, and it looks like that might be worth a look. Your department webpage shows that there's historically a 40% success rate in there. What can you tell me about recent population trends/numbers, along with hunting pressure and success in there, and what can I do to be more successful?..." Or, "It looks like success rates in unit DEF have increased lately. Why is that? " We will have a lot more to talk about and again, if you have already covered the basic stuff, you are more likely to get something that could really help your trip.
Along those lines, if a caller says "Hey, I'm headed into DeathAldersfromHell Creek, and want to get there from Crowded Trailhead over AltitudeSickness Pass. Is that spot worth the effort? It's obvious to me that you have at least thought about where you are headed and what the hunt might entail.
Also, feel free to ask about anything that might not be easily found on our department's webpage. As an 'unofficial' heads up, survey numbers and management plans are only updated on ours every five years, and sometimes harvest data isn't updated as quickly as it should be. Our IT shop tries hard but are even more understaffed than the field guys. If you aren't seeing something, ask about it.
5. Calling right after the season -
This one might be more of a wildcard as I know some biologists are skeptical of hunter reports. That said, we are spread pretty thin, personnel wise, and while I spend a lot of time on the ground and/or flying over a couple units, there's a lot of country I don't get a good look at. I REALLY appreciate it when I speak with a hunter that reports something along the lines of 'I was up in DeathAldersFromHell Creek and saw 22 does with 19 fawns. My buddy killed a nice bull in there, and were wondering if you had any more information on that spot?, or if there's somewhere else we might be looking?
Hope this helps. Good luck on your hunts and your information gathering efforts.
Most of us here in the outfit I work for are hunters and to an individual, we all like to see guys working hard and being successful with their hunts.
We'd also far rather talk hunting than writing/editing reports, budgeting, whatever, but we do have to pay the bills. But given the chance, we genuinely enjoy talking with hunters.
There's some VERY solid advice in the thread above. And, as a couple guys noted, we all got into this business to be outside, so we try to maximize our field time. When we do get back to the office, we're scrambling trying to get caught up with all the 'housekeeping' stuff as well as answer emails and phone calls.
Here are a couple things I'd suggest and some perspective I can offer. Hopefully this will help you get the most out of your effort and make the most out of the time we have to work together to make your trip successful. It might even save ME some time!
1. If you have waited until right before (or worse yet, during) hunting season, you are too late-
This time of year, I usually get between three and five calls and/or emails a day looking for information. I'll do my level best to answer each and every one of them, and help guys out, but like I mentioned, there are other things on my plate too. Also, remember it's hunting season and we're all trying to get out ourselves.
2. Call early in the year-or even right after hunting season ends (more on this later)-
In our agency, right after seasons close through January, and April and May are slow times. Call us then and we will have more time to talk. By late May and into June, some of us are starting to deal with nuisance wildlife calls, then the fiscal year ends June 30 and reports are due. July and August is survey season, the snow is out of the high country and a lot of time is spent flying and counting critters. Long story short, if you call me earlier in the year, I'll have more time to talk.
3. It can be really effective if you email first to set up a time to call-
I try to plan my weekly schedule around fieldwork, flights, etc. This way I can dedicate an entire day or two to phone calls and email. For example, if I have you down for 10:00-10:30 on Thursday, you're going to get that entire time block rather than if I pick up the phone on my way out the door.
Also, it's perfectly OK to ask if you can contact us again after we're finished with surveys for the year. In fact, I'll often tell a caller to get back in touch with me right after we're done with survey work and just before the season opens to see if there's anything notable that we observed during our summer flights. But remember that the pre-season time window is tight for us and while we might have time for a five or ten minute update, we probably won't have time for a detailed hour-long conversation then.
4. Do your homework -
I'm far more likely to engage and spend time with a caller that's obviously put in some time doing background research. I know a lot of guys come from out of state to hunt, so on-the-ground knowledge isn't critical. But, if you have already looked at the online material, some of your easy questions might already be answered. Then, we can spend more time on interesting, new information and you might even get a gem or two that wouldn't have come up if we were just talking about the basics.
4. Have specific questions - or even have a proposed hunt plan-
Again, if a caller says 'where can I go to kill a buck that scores XXX, or a YYY bull, or a ZZZ ram?' They are likely going to get a very generic answer. I'll probably say something like 'Well, Unit ABC has been producing some nice animals lately". FYI, Unit ABC is probably the size of a small Northeastern state. Maybe two small Northeastern states
But, if you are able to say "I was looking at Nunydambizness Mountain on Google Earth, and it looks like that might be worth a look. Your department webpage shows that there's historically a 40% success rate in there. What can you tell me about recent population trends/numbers, along with hunting pressure and success in there, and what can I do to be more successful?..." Or, "It looks like success rates in unit DEF have increased lately. Why is that? " We will have a lot more to talk about and again, if you have already covered the basic stuff, you are more likely to get something that could really help your trip.
Along those lines, if a caller says "Hey, I'm headed into DeathAldersfromHell Creek, and want to get there from Crowded Trailhead over AltitudeSickness Pass. Is that spot worth the effort? It's obvious to me that you have at least thought about where you are headed and what the hunt might entail.
Also, feel free to ask about anything that might not be easily found on our department's webpage. As an 'unofficial' heads up, survey numbers and management plans are only updated on ours every five years, and sometimes harvest data isn't updated as quickly as it should be. Our IT shop tries hard but are even more understaffed than the field guys. If you aren't seeing something, ask about it.
5. Calling right after the season -
This one might be more of a wildcard as I know some biologists are skeptical of hunter reports. That said, we are spread pretty thin, personnel wise, and while I spend a lot of time on the ground and/or flying over a couple units, there's a lot of country I don't get a good look at. I REALLY appreciate it when I speak with a hunter that reports something along the lines of 'I was up in DeathAldersFromHell Creek and saw 22 does with 19 fawns. My buddy killed a nice bull in there, and were wondering if you had any more information on that spot?, or if there's somewhere else we might be looking?
Hope this helps. Good luck on your hunts and your information gathering efforts.
Huntindog45
WKR
i work with a lot of biologisist in northern california (I am also a biologist, though i do not work for DFW) and this is just so not true. Sure there are some parts of the dept that have biologists that deal with regulatory stuff like permitting and many of them really lack any knowledge on game animal management but the biologists who work in big game management are avid hunters, good biologists and are absolutely trying their damnedest to work hard for our interests in a very flawed system. Trust me they are as frustrated as you and I are.
ClearCreek
WKR
Having retired from a western wildlife agency after working for 45 years in the wildlife profession, the info./advice given in Jasper's post is the best advice for contacting agency biologists that I have seen posted on these forums.
Also, HunitngDog45's response is spot on!!
ClearCreek
Also, HunitngDog45's response is spot on!!
ClearCreek
Bubblehide
WKR
- Joined
- May 13, 2015
- Messages
- 3,714
Granted, at times it has taken me a little while to get ahold of a biologist, but otherwise I have never had an issue. All have been friendly and informative. A couple, I ended up becoming friends with. But the are other people at all state wildlife departments with valuable information too.
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