Blackhorn 209 hang fire

Tag_Soup

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I have been experiencing hang fires from my new Traditions Pursuit ML using Blackhorn 209. I have had them as early as shots 2 & 3 after cleaning. I have even got several failure to fire situations with the primer going off. I am using CCI Magnum primers. Has anyone else had this issue? Should I be cleaning my breech plug every shot?

Any advice or insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
 

El Gavilan

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After you clean it, fire a primer with no load to blow the oil/cleaner out of the primer channel. See if that helps.


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I'd suggest seating your bullet HARD on the propellant. Next, are you cleaning the flash channel of carbon?
To clean carbon out of the flash channel, I believe the Traditions has a 1/8" channel, use a 1/8" drill bit TURNED BY HAND into the flash channel all the way to the flash hole. Chip out the carbon buildup. You'll know when you reach the bottom. But...… BY HAND.

In many rifles, its not necessary when using BH209 to have to swab between shots. In fact, some rifles actually shoot much better with a fouled barrel. If you swab between shots, the swabbing patch should NEVER be wet. Barely... barely damp. A couple top shooters I know, use a combination of 91% isopropyl alcohol and Hoppe's mixed 50/50. I use that myself also. Patches ever so slightly damp, followed by a dry patch.
 
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Tag_Soup

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I have been cleaning with clp every 6 shots or so. Seating firmly, but not excessively hard. I cleaned the primer/flash channel with a 1/8” drill bit by hand every 6 shots as well. I never had 2 miss fires consecutively, so I’m thinking firing the primer off blew out the flash hole.


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I have been cleaning with clp every 6 shots or so. Seating firmly, but not excessively hard. I cleaned the primer/flash channel with a 1/8” drill bit by hand every 6 shots as well. I never had 2 miss fires consecutively, so I’m thinking firing the primer off blew out the flash hole.
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Not sure if I'd use CLP as its also a lubricant. If you're getting any in the flash channel or flash hole, it may be causing the issues. I've never personally had a misfire or hang fire when using BH, especially using the magnum primers. I'd suggest that you're most likely contaminating the propellant at the flash hole in some way.
Have you tried shooting BH without swabbing between shots? That is a process to try IMO.
 
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Tag_Soup

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Not sure if I'd use CLP as its also a lubricant. If you're getting any in the flash channel or flash hole, it may be causing the issues. I've never personally had a misfire or hang fire when using BH, especially using the magnum primers. I'd suggest that you're most likely contaminating the propellant at the flash hole in some way.
Have you tried shooting BH without swabbing between shots? That is a process to try IMO.
I was not having the issue on the first shot and was going 6 shots between cleanings. The problems started the second shot usually. I could see how the clp could be causing an issue with the spent powder in the flash hole after the first shot though. I will switch to hoppes/alcohol and see if I get better results. I was also using more clp than I need to from the sounds of things. I guess the 777 experience is probably leaving me with bad habits


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ATX762

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I found that Blackhorn is more sensitive to fit/seating pressure than other substitutes, also. Needs to be real tight. Sounds like yours is a flash hole issue but might be worth really muscling the bullet down.

That said I still prefer Blackhorn.
 
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I was not having the issue on the first shot and was going 6 shots between cleanings. The problems started the second shot usually. I could see how the clp could be causing an issue with the spent powder in the flash hole after the first shot though. I will switch to hoppes/alcohol and see if I get better results. I was also using more clp than I need to from the sounds of things. I guess the 777 experience is probably leaving me with bad habits


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Sometimes when the rifle is lubricated and put up, to much lubricant can gravitate towards the breech plug and into the flash hole and channel. It happens more often than one might think. Then its also believed that some lubricants can create more problems than they seemingly prevent.
I'd suggest that prior to shooting, you clean all the lubricant possible from the barrel and of course the breech plug. Note that there are some who prefer storing their rifles with the breech plug removed, which they feel helps prevent gravitated lubricants causing issues.
I believe more shooters than not, just use way to much of a wet patch to swab. Patches should be ever so slightly damp and one should never be able to wring anything out of them. To much moisture when swabbing can cause drastic changes in accuracy too.
I prefer to use the 50/50 method. When lubricating my rifle after a session, I prefer Montana Extreme Accuracy Oil.
FYI...…… I seat bullets with a two handed THUMP. Hard. Never had a failure to hang fire.
 

sabotloader

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I have been experiencing hang fires from my new Traditions Pursuit ML using Blackhorn 209. I have had them as early as shots 2 & 3 after cleaning. I have even got several failure to fire situations with the primer going off. I am using CCI Magnum primers. Has anyone else had this issue? Should I be cleaning my breech plug every shot?

Any advice or insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Let me say off the top - I really do not know that much about your particular ML, but, I have not seen any where in this thread... Is your breech plug designed for shooting BH 209? Usually, with a over-the-waters ML, you have to purchase a BH plug separate from the plug that comes in your rifle.
 
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OFFHNTN

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I love BH 209. I usually can fire 8-10 shots before cleaning and don't ever remember is not going off. Is it new powder? Could be a primer, breech plug, firing pin problem?
 

helsyeah

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I know that some Traditions ML's have been known to have issues with spring tension on the hammer and as a result not igniting the cap/primer.

Is the primer going off each time?
 

OXN939

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I've had the OP's same issue with BH209 in multiple muzzleloading platforms. The reason there are BH209-specific breech plugs is that it is relatively difficult to ignite, and therefore requires a larger diameter flash channel. I had about five hangfires with brand new powder using the correct breech plugs and proper loading protocols before I contacted Wester Powders' customer service. They told me it was my fault and then stopped answering my emails.

Switched back to 777 and have yet to have a misfire since.
 
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Tag_Soup

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I know that some Traditions ML's have been known to have issues with spring tension on the hammer and as a result not igniting the cap/primer.

Is the primer going off each time?
Every primer has gone off. So far as I know, its an all or nothing situation with shotgun primers. Is it possible for the primer to go off, but not fully so?
 

sabotloader

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I am using the Traditions Pursuit breech plug. To my knowledge this is the only 209 plug they offer.
I really suggest you call Traditions - if they used the normal type breech plug you may never get it to work the way you want it to with BH.

As an additional thought your breech plug can be modified to be BH compliant but you will need to find a machinist or a person that can do it for you.

mike
 
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Tag_Soup

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I really suggest you call Traditions - if they used the normal type breech plug you may never get it to work the way you want it to with BH.

As an additional thought your breech plug can be modified to be BH compliant but you will need to find a machinist or a person that can do it for you.

mike
Mike,
Mechanically speaking, I am fairly capable. My guess would be that any required modifications would just be the diameter of or depth of throat of the flash hole. Do you know if any companies list the difference between their standard 209 and BH209 plugs?

Thanks!
-Travis
 

helsyeah

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Every primer has gone off. So far as I know, its an all or nothing situation with shotgun primers. Is it possible for the primer to go off, but not fully so?
No, a primer either ignites or not. So if they are firing its not your issue.

Edit: I found this little guy on traditions site: Accelerator Breech Plug™ A1443 | TraditionsFirearms.com. Not sure if its any different than the stock breech plug though.
 
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Tag_Soup

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After doing some additional research, it appears that my primers may not be fitting well in the primer pocket. All the spent primers have significant carbon fouling on the outside of the primer. According to Blackhorn, the primer should not have fouling on the outside after being shot. They claim that the presence of fouling on the outside of the plug indicates excessive primer blow back, which can cause hang fires. Too much head space can cause this as well. I suspect that I am either facing too much head space or too loose of a primer pocket.

I also cleaned with denatured alcohol and got a large amount of lubricant out of the barrel. I believe this was residue from the CLP. I will avoid using it in the future and see if results improve.
 
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Tag_Soup

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sabotloader

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Mike,
Mechanically speaking, I am fairly capable. My guess would be that any required modifications would just be the diameter of or depth of throat of the flash hole. Do you know if any companies list the difference between their standard 209 and BH209 plugs?

Thanks!
-Travis
Travis I am totally speculating here because I have never seen a Traditions BP... If you check a CVA sight you will see a lot of similarities in their BP and yours but CVA also has a BH plug they sell because they know the regular plug is susceptible to hang fires. Western Powders also knows this and suggests to use mag primers to hopefully override the limitations of the factory plug.

Remember I am only speculating here but I would bet you 'flash channel' in the your breech plug is only about 3mm in diameter and the 'flash hole' is probably reduced to very small diameter to reduce blow back pressures on the breech.


Here are some pictures that might help explain what I am referring to





This a bunch of pictures showing the modification of a TC Speed Breed which is some what like your BP



This a real basic drawing of the modifications to a knight plug.



So basically I drill out the flash channel with a #21 bit all the way through the plug. Then I will drill the end of the BP with a 3/8" 82* mill drill bit then tap end of the breech plug with a 10/32 tap and install a Lehigh Vent liner.

This will allow your BP to work with a normal W209 primer and BH....

Really hope some of this makes sense!
 
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