Blackhorn 209 hang fire

[ENCORE]

Here's a chart that was created in the testing of 209 primers for energy. The test was done with a .32cal GM barrel with 10grs of BH209 and identical projectile. Not indicating its exact, but one of possibly many completed tests.

 

[OXN939]

Is the hang fires happening after cleaning at the range?

Yes. I clean all my blackpowder firearms obnoxiously thoroughly. Drill bit through the flash channel, torch tip cleaner through the flash hole, and clean the bore after every round. The batch of BH209 I got still misfired, repeatedly, about once every five rounds.

The advantages to BH209 are that it is less hygoroscopic (absorbs less water from the air) and cleaner than any other blackpowder substitute. The downside is inescapable for me, though- it is harder to ignite, and therefore, in my experience, less reliable in a hunting situation. No matter how good all the other attributes of a propellant/ projectile/firearm may be, I'd never hunt with anything other than the least likely thing to malfunction when I'm aiming at a game animal.

 

[tdhanses]

Yes. I clean all my blackpowder firearms obnoxiously thoroughly. Drill bit through the flash channel, torch tip cleaner through the flash hole, and clean the bore after every round. The batch of BH209 I got still misfired, repeatedly, about once every five rounds.

The advantages to BH209 are that it is less hygoroscopic (absorbs less water from the air) and cleaner than any other blackpowder substitute. The downside is inescapable for me, though- it is harder to ignite, and therefore, in my experience, less reliable in a hunting situation. No matter how good all the other attributes of a propellant/ projectile/firearm may be, I'd never hunt with anything other than the least likely thing to malfunction when I'm aiming at a game animal.

It’s not hard to reliably ignite if the proper primer is used.

 

[OXN939]

It’s not hard to reliably ignite if the proper primer is used.

Correct primer, loading procedures and breech plug used. I'll be happy to provide video and pictures of Blackhorn failing with the aforementioned setup for anyone interested.

My intent here is not to bash a product. It's simply to make people aware of a weakness that could cause an animal to be wounded or cost someone an experience of a lifetime.

 

[tdhanses]

Correct primer, loading procedures and breech plug used. I'll be happy to provide video and pictures of Blackhorn failing with the aforementioned setup for anyone interested.

My intent here is not to bash a product. It's simply to make people aware of a weakness that could cause an animal to be wounded or cost someone an experience of a lifetime.

Oh I don’t think your bashing, you are just stating your experience. In my experience of shooting over 500 rds using this I’ve never once experienced a hang fire or other issue with bh209. It has been a very consistent and reliable powder. So I do agree use reliable components that limit chances of failure and in my experience bh209 does this over other water based powders. I’ve had it out in all the different elements from rain, snow and hot heat. I leave a load in the gun while hunting for multiple days if not a week straight. Again, not a single issue using it unlike other powders. That said you still need to protect the powder from the elements and I do my best to do that. Never take a muzzleloader into a warm environment, always leave it at outside temps when hunting.

I believe you can produce anything you want, I also believe anyone can produce poor results from any powder setup if proper care isn’t taken.

I’ve only ever used the Win W209 shotshell primers, got a good deal during the primer shortage and bought way way too many.

I personally only know of two people that had an issue with bh209, not on the web but in person, and it was because they used muzzleloader 209 primers which do not burn hot enough and per bh209 are not to be used. They also really like Triple 7 and imo were very biased etc.

Also when I hit the range I always shoot 30rds without cleaning, I haven’t tried the 50rd test. But based on your original post it looks like you are handling bh209 as if it is like the water based powders, it isn’t. You have to kind of throw out your procedures you are used to with other powders.

 

[OXN939]

CCI shotshell primers were the ones I used. Again, it could just be that I got a bad batch of powder- I probably would have picked up another bottle of powder to try if Western Powders' customer service hadn't been so rude and dismissive. In any case, glad you've found what works for you!

 

[Schism]

Recommendations straight from Blackhorn:

http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/primers/

If using CCI make sure they are the Magnum variety.

 

[tdhanses]

CCI shotshell primers were the ones I used. Again, it could just be that I got a bad batch of powder- I probably would have picked up another bottle of powder to try if Western Powders' customer service hadn't been so rude and dismissive. In any case, glad you've found what works for you!

If you still have the powder I’d go get a magnum shotshell primer from federal or win and try it, could be you got a bad batch of primers.

 

[OXN939]

Was using magnums when I experienced the failures.

 

[ENCORE]

I've shot a lot of BH209, lots of it. Last fall I used up a 5# container in just 2 months. I started using it the day it became available and continued using it until I bought my BP Xpress, which wasn't designed for BH209. When ASG developed the Gen2 breech plug for both the RUM and UF rifles, I changed my breech plug to the AGS plug and immediately began shooting BH209 again. It would be impossible to determine the total number of rounds I've fired with BH209. This I can safely say, its been thousands.

That said, I've never experienced hang fires or failure to fires as has been mentioned. With the proper breech plug designed to ignite BH209, the breech plug properly cleaned of carbon deposits and with a proper sized flash hole, all lubricants removed from both the barrel and breech plug, propellant that has been stored properly in a closed container, LRMP, CCI209M, or Federal 209A primers and a bullet properly and heavily seated on the propellant, there's no reason for a HF or FTF. The rifle will ignite BH209 instantly.

This I would suggest...….. although one may have purchased the BH209 breech plug for his/her rifle, if there's continued FTF or HF's, and all other contributing factors being eliminated, my next factor to eliminate would be the existing breech plug and I'd replace it with new. BH209 is just not that hard to ignite if all the proper equipment and procedures are followed. It will go bang.

 

[tdhanses]

Was using magnums when I experienced the failures.

Still could have been bad primers.

 

[OXN939]

Still could have been bad primers.

True indeed! Lots of things that could have been going wrong there. I've just never had any of them go wrong with T7, so that's what I've stuck with.

Perhaps I'll give Blackhorn another go next time I'm out of propellant.

 

[Idaholewis]

Correct primer, loading procedures and breech plug used. I'll be happy to provide video and pictures of Blackhorn failing with the aforementioned setup for anyone interested.

My intent here is not to bash a product. It's simply to make people aware of a weakness that could cause an animal to be wounded or cost someone an experience of a lifetime.

EXCELLENT Post!!

 

[Eric Bailey]

After you clean it, fire a primer with no load to blow the oil/cleaner out of the primer channel. See if that helps.


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I am using the Traditions Pursuit breech plug. To my knowledge this is the only 209 plug they offer.

I have this too. Still had issues with ignition. Drilled out the flash channel wider which helps. When I'm at the range, I only clean with patches and no solvent. I also fire a primer between shots as the flash channel gets dirty even w/o using any solvent or lube.

 

[Zew]

Here's what I got going.
I shoot an Accura V2 LR. Blackhorn 209, 84 grains by weight. Blackhorn breech plug. Nobel primers as they have a slightly larger diameter limiting blowback. Barnes spitfire t-ez . Only clean when it gets tough to load. Shot hundreds of rounds and never had an issue. And I only use blackhorn cleaner.

Just another point of view!

 

[SemperSmokey]

I've been having the same issues as Tag_Soup. Tried BH209 for the first time the other week and frequent hang fires and two misfires in 15 shots.

Tag_Soup - I think I have a similar issue with the poorly sealed primer. How did you shim the backplate forward?

My setup is a little different, but looking for anything to try - I used the recommened oil-based cleaning products, so don't think that would be the issue.

I was running a Traditions Buckstalker with 80grains of BH209, the black crush rib sabots with XTP .45cal bullets, and CCI magnum primers. To start the day, I did a couple swabs with dry patches (both sides), fired two primers, then loaded 80 grains of BH 209. I seated the bullet to the same depth I use with 777. I also cleaned every 3rd shot with a very slightly damp patch (just licked the patch lightly) followed by 2x dry patches. Every cleaning, I also used a nipple pick and one of those fire channel brushes on the breech plug. AND I actually bought the A1443 Traditions breech plug, only for it to arrive and me to realize it was exactly the same as the stock breech plug!

Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated! Hoping to see some of the consistency and cleanliness benefits BigGameHunter saw in his tests.

 

[OXN939]

I've been having the same issues as Tag_Soup. Tried BH209 for the first time the other week and frequent hang fires and two misfires in 15 shots.

Tag_Soup - I think I have a similar issue with the poorly sealed primer. How did you shim the backplate forward?

My setup is a little different, but looking for anything to try - I used the recommened oil-based cleaning products, so don't think that would be the issue.

I was running a Traditions Buckstalker with 80grains of BH209, the black crush rib sabots with XTP .45cal bullets, and CCI magnum primers. To start the day, I did a couple swabs with dry patches (both sides), fired two primers, then loaded 80 grains of BH 209. I seated the bullet to the same depth I use with 777. I also cleaned every 3rd shot with a very slightly damp patch (just licked the patch lightly) followed by 2x dry patches. Every cleaning, I also used a nipple pick and one of those fire channel brushes on the breech plug. AND I actually bought the A1443 Traditions breech plug, only for it to arrive and me to realize it was exactly the same as the stock breech plug!

Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated! Hoping to see some of the consistency and cleanliness benefits BigGameHunter saw in his tests.

I'll chime in again here, a year point something later. Hunted this fall with a new tub of BH 209. Worked fine in my CVA Wolf as long as I meticulously cleaned between every shot. Then, put together a new CO legal blackpowder setup- CVA Optima. It absolutely will not shoot the stuff- misfires about half the time. If I fail to clean the breech plug in my Wolf, same thing happens. Same is true for my T/C Encore. I'll note that a now 2.5 year old jug of 777 has yet to produce a misfire after being almost completely expended through all the same rifles.

Bottom line, after hundreds of iterations in three different rifles, is that 209 is way harder to ignite than other blackpowder subs. Some rifles probably need the modification shown earlier in this thread to get it to ignite reliably.

 

[Idaholewis]

BH209 is Finicky, that’s all there is to it. You can read BH209 Hangfire, Fail To Fire Threads like this across the Entire WWW on every Muzzleloader Forum i have seen. If you don’t meet it’s Requirements to the T the likelihood of Failure is VERY HIGH. I spent nearly 2 Hours on the Phone Recently with one of the Top Custom Muzzleloader Builders, he and i talked a little about BH209, He said most of the Problem is in the Breech Plug, That he was Confident with his setups that he Could ignite BH209 even with “Slip Fit” Type Bullets. I FULLY Trust ANYTHING this Guy say’s about Muzzleloaders.

Personally, i seen enough with BH209 that i would never Trust it on a Hunt of Mine. Trust in your Gear is a HUGE Part of the Equation, I want something that i KNOW is gonna go off, NO MATTER How much Compression there is on the Powder Charge? No matter the Breech Plug? Ignition Source? Etc. For me that is Swiss Real Blackpowder. I would trust it with my Life!!

This was a Fouler Shot with Swiss 2F Real Blackpowder that i decided to Catch on Video Recently, I do this to Foul the Bore before i Start shooting a Group. This is JUST a Powder Charge, and Wad, NO BULLET. Ignition source is a Regular No. 11 Percussion Cap, NOT Even a Magnum version. The Flash Hole in this Treso/Ampco Nipple is a Tiny .028 (Measured with Precise Pin Gauges)

 

[rodney482]

 

[Idaholewis]

View attachment 146744

Yep, I know about Primer Fit In fact my Video on Headspacing a Knight Rifle for Proper Primer “Crush” was made a “Sticky” on another Forum. This Stil would not ignite my “Slip Fit” Target Loads, Reliably anyway.