BLM on two corners with Private on the other two, ok to cross corner?

[NoWiser]

I had never thought about this, until a recent hunt in Wyoming.

I spotted and bedded a true giant buck, a top 1% type buck that was on public land, landlocked in the exact type scenario as OP posted.

After hours of deliberation, phone calls, etc to multiple agencies, I finally got the local warden. I was told in fact I would/could be cited, and that corner hopping is ILLEGAL.

If ANYONE has concrete proof, evidence or an official from Wyoming Game and Fish that will GO ON RECORD, telling me I’m good to go and that I was told wrong by that warden I would really, really appreciate contact info.

You should have killed it. You would have been just fine. The local warden would not have been allowed to write you a ticket. He just gave you that answer so he didn't have to deal with a pissed off landowner.

 

[def90]

Did they refuse to leave?

Did they cross a fence or go beyond a no trespassing sign?

Current Wyoming law defines criminal trespassing in the following manner:

(a) A person is guilty of criminal trespass if he enters or remains on or in the land or premises of another person, knowing he is not authorized to do so, or after being notified to depart or to not trespass. For purposes of this section, notice is given by:

(i) Personal communication to the person by the owner or occupant, or his agent, or by a peace officer; or

(ii) Posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders.

Wyoming State Statute 6-3-303

Your own quote says you are guilty of trespass if you “enter” the land of another person. While corner hopping even if one foot stays on public and the other foot sets down on public you cannot prevent your body from entering the air space of private land. It is what it is.

Besides, unless there is a fence there is not a single app or device out there that is accurate enough to tell you whether or not your foot is in private or public.

Think of property rights this way. You own the airspace above your property to a certain extent, of course airplanes can fly over, however, what do you think would happen if your neighbor came in and built a cantilevered deck on to their house that projects out 20 feet over your property line?

 

[4ester]

I had never thought about this, until a recent hunt in Wyoming.

I spotted and bedded a true giant buck, a top 1% type buck that was on public land, landlocked in the exact type scenario as OP posted.

After hours of deliberation, phone calls, etc to multiple agencies, I finally got the local warden. I was told in fact I would/could be cited, and that corner hopping is ILLEGAL.

If ANYONE has concrete proof, evidence or an official from Wyoming Game and Fish that will GO ON RECORD, telling me I’m good to go and that I was told wrong by that warden I would really, really appreciate contact info.

I believe this would fall to local law enforcement and more then likely the LEO would write you a ticket for criminal trespass. I think G&F likes to stay out of it for numerous reasons.


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[4ester]

People that don't know will tell you it's illegal in Wyoming.
The worst you'll get is a warning from a deputy, they won't, and don't write tickets. And when you read the " my friend got a ticket", it's because they didn't cross at a corner. I know of two tickets; the courts tossed the first and the wardens boss tossed the second. Wyoming wardens can't write a ticket for just crossing at a corner, it needs to be a game violation.
I called the chief game warden in WY and told him where I was going to corner cross. Short answer was , you'll be fine. I showed the local warden on his map draped over the hood of his truck where I was going to corner cross and the reply was "keep a track, stay on public, and if the lo gives you grief record it."


You can't get a ticket at this corner with a deputy standing there watching you, it's been tried.

View attachment 339557

It’s my understanding that Local Law Enforcement will cite you for criminal trespass? I think G&F likes to stay out of it.


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[cnelk]

Colorado Wardens can write trespass tickets - and do

 

[cnelk]

Some interesting reading here -

https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/RulesRegs/LawEnforcement/2019AnnualReport.pdf#search=trespass%20violations

 

[5MilesBack]

Think of property rights this way. You own the airspace above your property to a certain extent, of course airplanes can fly over, however, what do you think would happen if your neighbor came in and built a cantilevered deck on to their house that projects out 20 feet over your property line?

It's like a tree that is on your neighbor's property, but has branches that hang over your property. You can trim those branches back to the property line.

 

[intunegp]

Your own quote says you are guilty of trespass if you “enter” the land of another person. While corner nopping even if one foot stays on public and the other foot sets down on public you cannot prevent your body from entering the air space of private land. It is what it is.

Besides, unless there is a fence there is not a single app or device out there that is accurate enough to tell you whether or not your foot is in private or public.

Think of property rights this way. You own the airspace above your property to a certain extent, of course airplanes can fly over, however, what do you think would happen if your neighbor came in and built a cantilevered deck on to their house that projects out 20 feet over your property line?

Gps.gov claims the average cell phone is only accurate to within a 16-foot radius. Garmin only promises 49-foot radius. OnX says their property boundaries are updated every one-two years and are accurate within 5-10 feet. Fences get built surprisingly far on either side of a true, surveyed property boundary, so take them with a grain of salt too.

All that considered, if modern GPS mapping is only accurate to within 16 feet of a given point (at least to us measly civilians), and that line or point could be 5-10 feet off, how can anyone prove that you violated the property boundary just because a corner exists on the map and you were on one side or the other of said corner?

It would be one hell of an argument to try and win, but it sounds just ambiguous enough to be doable to the right jury. I think that's your only hope of arguing...where's the proof? Oh, and the witness? If the accuser doesn't witness the crime, aren't there a lot of assumptions involved? I mean I understand the context clues are stacked against you, but what happened to innocent until proven guilty?

 

[Dos Perros]

Your own quote says you are guilty of trespass if you “enter” the land of another person.

Did you read the entire law? The law requires that the entrant must "know" they are entering private land. Judging by quite a few responses in this very thread it's clear that not everyone would "know" all the intricacies with air space and yada yada. It would be a burden for a prosecutor to prove what someone knew in the act. Any DA worth his/her salt would toss it and not waste their time--they probably have enough thieves and drug addicts and fathers behind on child support to deal with.

 

[scooter25]

People that don't know will tell you it's illegal in Wyoming.
The worst you'll get is a warning from a deputy, they won't, and don't write tickets. And when you read the " my friend got a ticket", it's because they didn't cross at a corner. I know of two tickets; the courts tossed the first and the wardens boss tossed the second. Wyoming wardens can't write a ticket for just crossing at a corner, it needs to be a game violation.
I called the chief game warden in WY and told him where I was going to corner cross. Short answer was , you'll be fine. I showed the local warden on his map draped over the hood of his truck where I was going to corner cross and the reply was "keep a track, stay on public, and if the lo gives you grief record it."


You can't get a ticket at this corner with a deputy standing there watching you, it's been tried.

View attachment 339557

If you are on foot and have some type of GPS tracking device that you can show you crossed at the corner a game warden won't cite you unless you area violating some other rules. If the landowner calls the county sheriff they will cite you for criminal trespassing. Game wardens generally only issue citations for hunting violations and where I'm at they don't consider corner hoping a hunting violation. The Sherriff is a different deal.

 

[roadrunner]

If the fence line is literally on the property line, then the offset private landowner is infringing on a small portion of BLM land.

I'd cross and let the landowner piss and moan about it...

 

[Hornpout]

Generalizations cannot be made on this point because it is a matter of state law and they will vary. As a general matter a land owner owns at least as much of the space above the ground as they can occupy or use in connection with the land. True corner hopping will place your body in the appurtenant airspace above a private land owner's property. If you are truly concerned try and request an opinion through your state attorney general. I would not consider a game warden's or local sheriff's legal interpretation definitive. Trespass to property is also a civil matter so regardless of whether the trespass is enforced criminally, you could still be hailed into court to defend a civil case if the landowner happens to be litigious.

 

[FLATHEAD]

They would just have to write me the ticket, I would find out one way or the other.

 

[Coveyleader]

It's BS for sure. So Imagine you park on the road right there, and walk south with your arm over the fence the whole way. Better yet, you're sucking your thumb waving cheerleader pom poms. Do you think the rancher would care? Do you think the DOW officer would right you a ticket? If they don't, what is the difference between that, and stepping over the corner if you know where it is exactly?

Exactly is the key word here, and you better be correct (Onx isn't spot on, and neither is your GPS in your phone.

 

[Hornpout]

Seems like this would be a great thing to bring to a public vote. If the wolf lovers can convince the general public we need wolves in Colorado, why can’t we convince them that they should be allowed to access public property that land owners use as their own, free land.

Because if that trespass is cognizable under state law, allowing public access could give rise to fifth amendment taking and landowners would be entitled to just compensation. The value of that interest in real property may not be worth all that much but it is still a taking none-the-less. Condemnation has fallen out of favor but would be a great tool to rectify landlocked checkerboard sections.

 

[def90]

Did you read the entire law? The law requires that the entrant must "know" they are entering private land. Judging by quite a few responses in this very thread it's clear that not everyone would "know" all the intricacies with air space and yada yada. It would be a burden for a prosecutor to prove what someone knew in the act. Any DA worth his/her salt would toss it and not waste their time--they probably have enough thieves and drug addicts and fathers behind on child support to deal with.

The point of this thread is corner hopping, the act of jumping from one piece of public land to another while bordering private land. Are you telling me that someone that is corner hopping is not aware that they are entering private land? That goes against the concept and purpose of corner hopping.

 

[gbflyer]

Actually you would get a better answer out of a professional land surveyor licensed in the state you have the question about. Judges, lawyers, LE, and juries seldom understand the complexities of law concerning property boundary issues and those 3 I listed first make a lot of assumptions.

 

[GreenNDark Timber]

To me this one comes down to a personal ethics decision sprinkled with a little common sense and not what each individual state law says. I know I'm not physically trespassing on anyone's property, I'm stepping from public land to public land and have no intensions of shooting an animal on the private land. (I understand the airspace argument and it's grasping at straws). If I get a ticket, I'll pay it knowing that was a risk I was willing to take in that state and I'll go to sleep at night knowing I didn't do anything ethically wrong. The old saying of "just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's ethical" works both ways.

I'm not saying this is the right approach for everyone. If you think it's ethically wrong because that state's law says so, make that personal decision and stick with it.

 

[ODB]

Just curious. For surveyors, how much tolerance is accepted when disputing a property boundary? Any?

 

[Dos Perros]

The point of this thread is corner hopping, the act of jumping from one piece of public land to another while bordering private land. Are you telling me that someone that is corner hopping is not aware that they are entering private land? That goes against the concept and purpose of corner hopping.

Read the thread, there are plenty of folks here that don't 'know' they are entering private.

If you were the DA, how would you prove what someone knew?