Bonus Points

[LostArra]

To avoid hijacking the preference point thread I wanted to hear the pros and cons of a Bonus point system. It seems if you are "rewarded" for unsuccessful applications over the years by having your name in the hat more times then a random draw would be more reasonable. I'm sure there are some unintended consequences of the bonus system too.

I've wondered if a state abandoned a preference point system by transitioning those points to bonus points over say 5 years if it would be more palatable to high point holders. (I don't believe any state will be abandoning their preference point system and admitting it was a bad idea)

 

[MuleDeerMike]

Washington does bonus points. If youre one of the guys with max points for sheep, goat, moose, etc and say you had max points last year (somewhere around 27 I think), this year with 28 points you have worse odds than last year where you had less points. You're odds are technically still better than everyone else, but they're reducing every year. We're at the point now that every year you don't draw with max points your odds go down. It seems impossible and insane, but it's the truth. If Washington dropped the bonus point racket and went to random draw with no points like Idaho, then everyones odds, including max points guys, would go up relatively significantly overnight. Trying to convince the Old-Timers with max points that this is true and would increase their odds is next to impossible though. BTW, Washington squares points, if that wasnt already implied.

 

[Riplip]

Montana also uses bonus points (squared) for their limited entry tags. I personally prefer this system as it does not create the point creep issues like some other states. In addition it does not completely exclude those who have not been in the points game forever and/or new hunters, while at the same time gives those who have accumulated more points better odds (but not guarantees) of drawing. Obviously no State is perfect and I am sure there are plenty of people who don't like this system for whatever reason. Just my $.02.

 

[Bailer]

I like Arizona’s hybrid system. Most of the tags go in the random draw where your points act like a bonus point, so you’ve always got a chance. Eventually you hit the max point level and know you’re hunting. it may not work as well for non residents

 

[Beendare]

Bonus points are great <sarcastic sigh>

I have 19 of them in Nevada for elk which gives me a whopping 2% better chance of drawing the tag.

I think Wapiti Bob said it best, Analyze the draws to understand what you are getting yourself in to.
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[Brooks]

I don’t put in for the top AZ units but I have been buying non res elk points for 15 straight years plus the loyal point and the non res hunter safety point and still have never drawn an AZ elk tag. If I ever do draw I am done with the AZ point game. Between point creep and game and fish changing the way they want to do the draw without any concern for guys with a lot of years and $$$$ in ....IMO...not worth it anymore.

 

[Fatcamp]

South Dakota has bonus points. The high point holders whined to SDGFP loud enough that they decided to cube the points two years ago. Ya, not cool. There are so many double digits point holders and so few tags issued that people new to the game are screwed. At least before they had a chance. Now, 16X16X16 against 1X1X1 or 2X2X2. Oh, well. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[NoWiser]

I absolutely can’t believe that passed in SD. That was a generation blatantly screwing their kids and grandkids. They should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[LostArra]

Thanks to all. It appears that any system with a "point" is going to have it's flaws, some worse than others. What can we expect if there are exponentially more applicants than tags, 100 to 2 ratio?

 

[wjj605]

South Dakota has bonus points. The high point holders whined to SDGFP loud enough that they decided to cube the points two years ago. Ya, not cool. There are so many double digits point holders and so few tags issued that people new to the game are screwed. At least before they had a chance. Now, 16X16X16 against 1X1X1 or 2X2X2. Oh, well. Be careful what you wish for.

I absolutely can’t believe that passed in SD. That was a generation blatantly screwing their kids and grandkids. They should be ashamed of themselves.

Yeah that was a bad move and why I'll be leaving SD and moving west. No sense waiting for a hills elk tag for umpteen years.

 

[Anello]

All good thoughts above. There is clearly no perfect system, or correct opinion. The best a state can do is impose a hybrid system and try to guarantee a few max point holders tags to get them out of the pool. Straight bonus points have worked for me before, and I drew a limited entry tag with (5) points by some stroke of luck. That is the allure of the bonus point system. When I was on that hunt, I met a resident who had burned 17 points on the same tag. Is that fair? No. But, he would not have complained had he drawn earlier. The problem for folks that have 15+ years of points is that the odds have drastically changed over the life of their application period, and they are pot committed with no guarantee of ever drawing a tag in the bonus point system. The same occurs in a preference point system if you don't lower expectations and apply for a lesser tag, with all the obvious caveats

I've come to the conclusion that I am no longer banking points. I will never catch the creep, and neither will anyone else in the 7-10 point range, which is where I am at in a few states. So, I've been trying to put in for hunts I can draw. The funny thing there is that when I do, point creep still kills me because I am clearly not the only one thinking the same. There is no right answer here, but I sincerely hope that the few states that are still straight lottery states hold strong and stay that way.

 

[tylerb4613]

I don’t put in for the top AZ units but I have been buying non res elk points for 15 straight years plus the loyal point and the non res hunter safety point and still have never drawn an AZ elk tag. If I ever do draw I am done with the AZ point game. Between point creep and game and fish changing the way they want to do the draw without any concern for guys with a lot of years and $$$$ in ....IMO...not worth it anymore.

So you

I don’t put in for the top AZ units but I have been buying non res elk points for 15 straight years plus the loyal point and the non res hunter safety point and still have never drawn an AZ elk tag. If I ever do draw I am done with the AZ point game. Between point creep and game and fish changing the way they want to do the draw without any concern for guys with a lot of years and $$$$ in ....IMO...not worth it anymore.

What's the loyal point and hunter safety point? How do I get them?

 

[wind gypsy]

What's the loyal point and hunter safety point? How do I get them?

If you apply for a given species for 5 consecutive years, you get an extra "loyalty" point every year until you stop applying.

If you complete a hunter's safety course in AZ, yet get an additional bonus point every year.

 

[wind gypsy]

Bonus points are great <sarcastic sigh>

I have 19 of them in Nevada for elk which gives me a whopping 2% chance of drawing the tag.

I think Wapiti Bob said it best, Analyze the draws to understand what you are getting yourself in to.
_______

I have a whopping 3 points in NV and wondering why the heck I bother. Just have to think of it as an annual donation to NDOW and hope I get lucky with 10% odds in the easiest to draw unit maybe in a decade..

 

[87TT]

Point systems are killing hunting.

 

[Beendare]

I have a whopping 3 points in NV and wondering why the heck I bother. Just have to think of it as an annual donation to NDOW and hope I get lucky with 10% odds in the easiest to draw unit maybe in a decade..

Well its kind of funny when you think about it.....our chances of drawing the tag we want are not that much different....and every year I have been buying the licenses for 16 years longer than you.



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[Gobbler36]

I am very very thankful that Idaho hasnt adopted a point scheme, I am sitting here this morning looking over all the AZ info trying to decide on whether to keep going with my 5 measly points or to drop out of it, i personally feel the split sysytem they have is a smoke and mirrors scheme .2% random chance of tags and massive point creep is hardly a chance

 

[jray5740]

Washington does bonus points. If youre one of the guys with max points for sheep, goat, moose, etc and say you had max points last year (somewhere around 27 I think), this year with 28 points you have worse odds than last year where you had less points. You're odds are technically still better than everyone else, but they're reducing every year. We're at the point now that every year you don't draw with max points your odds go down. It seems impossible and insane, but it's the truth. If Washington dropped the bonus point racket and went to random draw with no points like Idaho, then everyones odds, including max points guys, would go up relatively significantly overnight. Trying to convince the Old-Timers with max points that this is true and would increase their odds is next to impossible though. BTW, Washington squares points, if that wasnt already implied.

Im having a hard time following the logic of reduced odds with more points a year later? More than willing to admit I dont know what I dont know, but Math and Stats are a significant part of my education and career and I cant seem to come to the same conclusion about reduced odds. Can you explain?

On a side note, even though I have max points in some states and very few in others.....overall I personally like the bonus point systems of some states over the random of others. In my mind yes that means you wait many years to draw if ever.......but I consistently hear people argue in their daily lives that their seniority at work or their years of doing "X" mean something which should give them privilege over someone else with less seniority or less years doing "X". If that is a sound argument to daily lives, shouldn't that logic and reasoning be applied everywhere?

Its a hard pill to swallow, for me personally, that say a 17 year old draws a Ram tag in a completely random drawing when his dad and grandfather not to mention thousands of other people spent their whole lives trying and never got one.......to me, this lone example is enough for me to support a bonus point system over a completely random system.

 

[wjj605]

Im having a hard time following the logic of reduced odds with more points a year later? More than willing to admit I dont know what I dont know, but Math and Stats are a significant part of my education and career and I cant seem to come to the same conclusion about reduced odds. Can you explain?

On a side note, even though I have max points in some states and very few in others.....overall I personally like the bonus point systems of some states over the random of others. In my mind yes that means you wait many years to draw if ever.......but I consistently hear people argue in their daily lives that their seniority at work or their years of doing "X" mean something which should give them privilege over someone else with less seniority or less years doing "X". If that is a sound argument to daily lives, shouldn't that logic and reasoning be applied everywhere?

Its a hard pill to swallow, for me personally, that say a 17 year old draws a Ram tag in a completely random drawing when his dad and grandfather not to mention thousands of other people spent their whole lives trying and never got one.......to me, this lone example is enough for me to support a bonus point system over a completely random system.

I can see where you are coming from and for the most part I agree. Bonus points are, for the most part, the best way to give some advantage to returning applicants while not completely leaving new applicants a next to 0% draw odds. The problem with bonus points arises when they decide to square or cube them, which essentially leaves everyone but top point levels with little to no chance.

 

[Blackcats06]

I don’t put in for the top AZ units but I have been buying non res elk points for 15 straight years plus the loyal point and the non res hunter safety point and still have never drawn an AZ elk tag. If I ever do draw I am done with the AZ point game. Between point creep and game and fish changing the way they want to do the draw without any concern for guys with a lot of years and $$$$ in ....IMO...not worth it anymore.

You do know there are a lot of great hunts you can draw with less than 15 points right?

And the GF has changed how the draw has worked a couple times now. Always trying to improve it. This newest change HELPS you as you haven't had good luck being you have 17 pts