Career/experience at the USFS

[SWOHTR]

I know some of you have experience working with/for USFS. I'm currently AD USN with plans on making it a career, but looking forward 10+ years to what I'll do "after the Navy." As much as I have always said I'll "never work for the government again," I am interested in working at the USFS for the opportunities to continue serving stateside and in the management of natural resources. It would be a "devil I know" sort of a deal. I've heard it referred to as the "Forest Circus" and I can relate to those sentiments.

So, I'm looking for input and thoughts from those who have:
-Made a career at the USFS
-Worked for the USFS, not a career
-Volunteered for the USFS
-Worked as a contractor hired by the USFS
-Owned/operated a contracting service and been contracted by USFS

Any experience in above is welcome. From the GS-5 secretary positions to GS-15 or above (if there is even anything higher than that...not sure if there's an SES equivalent for the USFS). The good, bad, ugly, great, unexpected, etc. Where were you "stationed?" How did "stationing" work - did you get assigned a forest district that you wanted, or does the USFS do with you what they want (like the military)? What did you THINK you were going to do vs. what did you ACTUALLY do? Frustrations? Enjoyment? In my mind I see "lots of outdoors time in the woods" but I also know the realities of the "speed of government," mandated trainings, slow and/or outdated technologies, procedures and policies with a lot of red tape, etc.

Background if anyone cares, and not sure what impact it'll have on the hiring process: I have 11 years experience in the Navy (presently a LCDR/O4 Surface Warfare Officer, doing a second Chief Engineer tour). Educational background, I hold a BS in Technical Systems Management from Illinois and a Master's in Natural Resources from the University of Idaho.

Thanks for any input,

Joe

 

[AZBG]

Joe, I worked for the Forest Service as a firefighter for four years when I was younger. Folks who work in fire, timber, and recreation get a lot of time in the woods as you mentioned. As you move up the GS scale you are likely to end up at a Supervisors or Regional Office which means a lot of desk time, emails, phone calls, meetings with an occasional trip out to the field if you're lucky. The downside with those "fun" jobs is that there is usually not much opportunity to move up the pay scale, a lot of career guys are lucky to get to the 6/7/8 range.

When you apply for a job you select one or multiple "duty locations", meaning you choose the cities or area you would like to work in. No guarantees on which place you might get a job offer from.

 

[nodakian]

I worked at a district office during summers in the late 80s-early 90s. GS-3 & -4 always in the field--fires, trails, saw crew, timber, surveying--but the PC crap was coming on strong even then. My brother lasted until the early 2000s until he couldn't stand it. He described it as more time spent in meetings talking about feeling good than going out and feeling good about accomplishing things. There are probably still places you can avoid that stuff, but the USFS of my youth seems to have been the tail end of the USFS I grew up admiring.

Now when I interact with USFS in my current job it seems like they are drowning in bureaucratic regulations, inertia, and indecision. Their stock answer is "no" or " that permit will take at least two years" or "I can't make that decision".

The BLM seems to have a more can-do, get it done attitude.

I hope that helps.

 

[SWOHTR]

Thanks for the responses. They confirm my hesitations. I think it is an idea that sounds good in my head but would leave me frustrated in practice.

 

[Wetwork]

Sir, you'd get frustrated as hell. This past year I've been doing the same thing with the same idea. And I have a good classmate I grew up with walking me through it all. And he's way up the GS ladder. First you give up and write off your retirement pay. Basically the FS add's your govenment pay to their pay. You won't be getting DOD retirement pay anymore. I make it sound funny but look into it it's what happens. I kinda fond of that veterans pay and to have it transfered else where doesn't feel right. But money is just money.

Here's what I'd do if I was a retiring "O" squid. Figure out where you are going to put down roots. Focus on that. Then as you get closer to retirement then start job hunting local to your new home. I'd be trying State, County, City jobs. All management. Get some more education under your belt, business management stuff. Then when you retire see if you still want to play. I have a in-law who retired from the Navy as a Senior Chief electriction. He was working for a local college as a security intel manager before he was even out. He makes more now than when he was enlisted. And with covid all his stuff is on a laptop from home. And he was just a wire-wiggler.-WW (ret.USCG)

 

[Pony Soldier]

I concur with Nodakian. I worked summers on three districts in the 70s but then 12 years for the USBM largely on FS land. The rest of my career was spent helping the public with problems.

The FS suffers today with the inability to make management decisions. Some of it started with the court case that decided that there were too few women in management. Rather than developing a path for them they started stuffing unqualified /untrained women into ranger positions. Many got so that no decision was better than a bad one.

Through the 90s they seemed to get infiltrated with environuts. Then those that followed the law got ganged up on by the emotionalizm of the environuts.

I know some very professional but frustrated people trying to survive in an agency floundering in strife and turmoil.

You can be the white knight and sacrifice your life to save the floundering ship or choose another option. Some BLM offices still function but others just flail with more internal conflict than function. I feel there is something left to save there but I am afraid that the FS is so far gone that it is time to kill it and start over but with a very selective collection of former employees or none at all.

My tour in Interior showed me that it was possible to have a professional federal agency but they killed that in 1996.

Pick wisely! Employment by the federal government is somewhat similar to a hemmroid. It won't kill you but it might make you wish you died.

 

[Forestryguy]

What WetWork said. Not worth giving up the retirement money that you will already have coming in. You would be better off going to the private sector and doing the same work as a contractor.

 

[Northpark]

I’m a lifelong USFS employee. Came up through Timber management and hazardous fuels side of the house with a little fire mixed in. Now at the manager level so responsible for timber, grazing, mining, recreation, fire, fuels, etc.

If you have any desire to chat about what it’s really like today PM me.

 

[SWOHTR]

Thank you for the insight. The retirement pay rollup/forfeiture is a definite no-go for me. So, that brings this idea and option off the table. As I suspected, what I envision in my mind is different than the reality. Thank you again for the insights.

Our basic plan right now, since we're still 9+ years out, is to start looking where we want to end up with about 2-3 years left of my AD service. Basically, as WW said. I just had to ask about USFS and possibilities.

 

[Traveler]

You don’t necessarily lose your retirement pay from the military. You only do if you choose to have it applied to your civilian FERS retirement calculation. You could keep your military retirement and still work for USFS. Your FERS calculation would just start at time of hiring not at time of entering military.

Military and Civil-Service Pensions

One of the most common questions people have is whether or not you can draw a military pension and a civil service pension at the same time.

militarybenefits.info

 

[SWOHTR]

What WetWork said. Not worth giving up the retirement money that you will already have coming in. You would be better off going to the private sector and doing the same work as a contractor.

Thanks for the response. What contractors are typically hired...trail/infrastructure maintenance? Is there any money in contracting with the USFS? I know defense contracting is pretty lucrative, but, that is defense.

 

[SWOHTR]

You don’t necessarily lose your retirement pay from the military. You only do if you choose to have it applied to your civilian FERS retirement calculation. You could keep your military retirement and still work for USFS. Your FERS calculation would just start at time of hiring not at time of entering military.

Military and Civil-Service Pensions

One of the most common questions people have is whether or not you can draw a military pension and a civil service pension at the same time.

militarybenefits.info

Thanks for the clarification here. Of course they make it about as clear as mud!

 

[IDLassie]

personally, run far run fast and don't look back.

 

[Forestryguy]

Thanks for the response. What contractors are typically hired...trail/infrastructure maintenance? Is there any money in contracting with the USFS? I know defense contracting is pretty lucrative, but, that is defense.

As swan there are others with more/ongoing experience on here. I have seen contractors for fire, which is a big one, fuel reduction and standard harvest. When I worked in Iowa we bid out all of our bigger timber management harvests. I would guess that in the coming years there will be a lot of work for fuels reduction, since it has made headlines recently.

One of the good things with being a contractor is that you can decide who you want to do work for, as long as you are winning bids.

Might want to reach out to those on the gov and contractor sides and get their input. I would also start adding people to a Linked In profile. It seems that the more people you are linked to the more searches you show up in when employees are looking for candidates.

Good to see that you are starting to plan things now though. By rank I am guessing that you are more on years. Things have changed, from what I know about, for separation from service. When I got out it was check a few boxes and a kick to the street to figure it all out on my own. Have all your med documents in order, they disappear real quick, to put in for Service disabilities.

 

[SWOHTR]

Yes, if all goes right I have 9+ more years in the Navy to go. They "try" to take care of you upon discharge...send you to through TAPS/TGPS/whatever they're calling it nowadays.

What I know is that after spending so much time at sea, in oily enginerooms, I want to be doing something more hands-on. When I get congratulated for sending a good email, that doesn't have near the effect as something tangible that I can look back on. At this point I'd be happy wandering a trail with a chainsaw, just for a little break! Hah.

PS what are the volunteer opportunities like? Specifically trail maintenance?

I know I'm kind of all over the place here, there's just a lot going through my head. This is what I think of on my morning and afternoon commutes. I've also joked with the wife that I'll retire and be a monster truck driver by day and rumrunner by night.

 

[.204smokechaser]

This will be a long post so bear with me.

Going into my 10th season with the USFS, 3rd as a permanent employee (guaranteed 13 pay periods/6 months a year) and I’m in a primary Fire Position. I’m not a firefighter according to my job title or classification even though the infrastructure bill was passed. OPM of course will take the longest time they can to get us our much deserved pay raise and classification among support in hazardous fuel reduction and work. BLM, USFWS and USFS are only considered firefighters when they die. The majority of the public thinks we are firefighters, but nope we are forestry or range technicians. I’ve explained multiple times to semi famous athletes to celebrities to politicians when I’ve been doing my job protecting their property and have been 100% honest with them when they asked what I’m paid, what the benefits are, among other things.

My mother worked for the USFS from 1976 to 2019 and she basically walked out and hasn’t looked back except to help out the rest of the folks from her generation that have retired the last few years with recreation analysis contracts and NEPA. There’s only one remaining who was there a long time where she worked and he’s had to fight to be able to keep a work truck, dump truck, and backhoe and is responsible for road maintenance on 3 districts…. How messed up is that?!? She saw it go from the good ole days where there were a ton of guard stations and work centers where families liked to live to a ghost town of a combined district office to people who work for the Forest service to push the agenda of tree huggers, fish kissers, and bird watchers. Not too mention if someone messed up like the old days, they would of been fired, now they get assigned a 1-6 hour class or reading by the disasterous HR department.

Okay, if you’re turned off by that, I’ll go into generally what I’ve seen working for the Forest service for 10 years and volunteering since I could basically walk. When I was a kid, I grew up at a work center and my mom switched from timber crew lead to wilderness and trails manager and recreation planner. I helped feed alpacas and was able to hop in the usfs rigs to go to trailheads and go out to work with my mom when My dad was somewhere away falling timber. That was the times when Forest service offices still groomed their own snowmobile trails and what seemed like campgrounds were managed and lookouts were still abundant. Things have changed the last 20 years massively. Trail work and recreation sites mainly are now contracted out to volunteer groups or contractors, the Forest service hardly owns any buildings and instead pays a developer to build new buildings and leases it out, old forest service places are closing due to no funds for maintenance, there is no enforcement of rules on public lands due to workers not wanting to take forest protection officer trainings and forests not wanting to cite and instead educate, among other third including dirt bags not getting fired when they need to. I know several retired military police who did recreation/off highway vehicle program stuff and used to right tickets. They walked out when their efforts of ticketing violators weren’t being upheld by the upper management.

Now onto my career, started off as a temporary seasonal to longer seasons when I to was going to school at the University of Idaho for a Forestry Degree and Minor in fire. First part of my career was in Central Wa in the area I grew up in and loved every minute of it. After 4 seasons there I moved to Idaho to obtain Idaho residency and go to school in Moscow. I got hooked on the Forest I worked on in Idaho as it had and still has that oldcshool feel to it where work centers and guard stations are still very much active and many of the lookouts are still manned. The Forest supervisor then (still is the supervisor) is top class and works for the public and knows what their job is. The district rangers are not the public’s enemy and work with the public. That Forest still logs a crap ton with their own timber management crews and still grazes a ton. After I worked on that Forest for 3 seasons I got my in to a permanent employee status and decided to explore eastern Oregon a little bit. I worked at a cool area and it to be honest had many pros and cons but a con as I didn’t feel like Oregon was where I wanted to be. I came back to Idaho and seen some things I won’t get started about and moved on from that Forest back to region 1 in Idaho (that first Idaho Forest), where it’s just calling me to come home and stay there for the long term.

I like fire, I just don’t like it I love it. I don’t attend weddings in the summer and have missed family events and stuff but don’t care as to be honest spending the last 6 summers living in the woods is cool. I’m not at the stage or my life where I need a woman and still have adventuring years left and choose the woods over women. Having the opportunity to go out in the woods everyday in the summer and hear the birds chirp and elk talk is something I know many don’t have a clue about in the USA on actually how cool it is. To be able to go on a paid vacation almost every year (Fire preposition severity assignments) has allowed me to explore some places out west where I never would go to on my off time. Going on fire assignments all across the west has allowed me to connect with different cultures and people in future years (just like a conversation I had yesterday) People think I’m a foreigner when I talk about my woods and fire experiences at a coffee shop in cities.


Annual leave accrual and retirement (TSP if you’re enrolled in it being in the USN) kind of suck to be honest. The only other job in the federal land management agencies I can see myself doing besides Fire is being an LEO and I think you should look into it. LEOs are needed badly and really it’s a job that many like if they’re in a cool area with not many pieces of shit humans. Timber, recreation, or any other job on the Forest service doesn’t pay that well compared to private sector. Many people I know leave the Forest service to join the private sector companies and I don’t blame them. If I wanted to use my forestry degree and be a forester, I’d join a private sector company before I ever thought about applying for Forest service timber permanent jobs.

So a general recap-
pros: Apply to where you want to live and work and you can change jobs whenever you want as long as you apply for it and get it. Meet people and see some cool area and get paid for it. GREAT SUMMER JOB For college students or those needing some excitement for a summer after getting out of military or transitioning careers.

Cons: tons of bullshit and hard to fire people, pay sucks outside of wildland fire (structure pays more too), HR is a disaster, employees who are there for a guaranteed paycheck and not there to contribute to the Forest Services mission, cliques started from the management down to the lower todemn pole, disgruntled employees, absolute trash of an Employee assistance Program as far as mental health counseling goes.


With your military experience and education, I bet it wouldn’t be that hard for you to get picked up by a private sector timber company or a natural resource management company if you wanted to work for one.

As far as contracting side of things go, definitely is money to be made there as far as Fire contracts to road building contracts to other contracts such as analysis. My buddy replaces culverts when he’s not on fires and had a few pieces of equipment on fires for 110 days last year. Think of that money he brought in….

You could also go into consulting. Future is bright with any sort of natural resources degrees these days.


Edit: I got to mention my trail contract days with another old retired guy. We used to clear out 100 miles of backcountry trails a year and had a lot of fun. Unfortunately he passed away a few weeks ago.

 

[Forestryguy]

At this point I'd be happy wandering a trail with a chainsaw, just for a little break! Hah.

I ge it. I got out in '03. Got my degree and spent 10yrs on a State Forest doing a bunch of different timber work. The best days were snowy cold days doing projects and the only people around were those that were on the crew.

 

[SWOHTR]

This will be a long post so bear with me.

Going into my 10th season with the USFS, 3rd as a permanent employee (guaranteed 13 pay periods/6 months a year) and I’m in a primary Fire Position. I’m not a firefighter according to my job title or classification even though the infrastructure bill was passed. OPM of course will take the longest time they can to get us our much deserved pay raise and classification among support in hazardous fuel reduction and work. BLM, USFWS and USFS are only considered firefighters when they die. The majority of the public thinks we are firefighters, but nope we are forestry or range technicians. I’ve explained multiple times to semi famous athletes to celebrities to politicians when I’ve been doing my job protecting their property and have been 100% honest with them when they asked what I’m paid, what the benefits are, among other things.

My mother worked for the USFS from 1976 to 2019 and she basically walked out and hasn’t looked back except to help out the rest of the folks from her generation that have retired the last few years with recreation analysis contracts and NEPA. There’s only one remaining who was there a long time where she worked and he’s had to fight to be able to keep a work truck, dump truck, and backhoe and is responsible for road maintenance on 3 districts…. How messed up is that?!? She saw it go from the good ole days where there were a ton of guard stations and work centers where families liked to live to a ghost town of a combined district office to people who work for the Forest service to push the agenda of tree huggers, fish kissers, and bird watchers. Not too mention if someone messed up like the old days, they would of been fired, now they get assigned a 1-6 hour class or reading by the disasterous HR department.

Okay, if you’re turned off by that, I’ll go into generally what I’ve seen working for the Forest service for 10 years and volunteering since I could basically walk. When I was a kid, I grew up at a work center and my mom switched from timber crew lead to wilderness and trails manager and recreation planner. I helped feed alpacas and was able to hop in the usfs rigs to go to trailheads and go out to work with my mom when My dad was somewhere away falling timber. That was the times when Forest service offices still groomed their own snowmobile trails and what seemed like campgrounds were managed and lookouts were still abundant. Things have changed the last 20 years massively. Trail work and recreation sites mainly are now contracted out to volunteer groups or contractors, the Forest service hardly owns any buildings and instead pays a developer to build new buildings and leases it out, old forest service places are closing due to no funds for maintenance, there is no enforcement of rules on public lands due to workers not wanting to take forest protection officer trainings and forests not wanting to cite and instead educate, among other third including dirt bags not getting fired when they need to. I know several retired military police who did recreation/off highway vehicle program stuff and used to right tickets. They walked out when their efforts of ticketing violators weren’t being upheld by the upper management.

Now onto my career, started off as a temporary seasonal to longer seasons when I to was going to school at the University of Idaho for a Forestry Degree and Minor in fire. First part of my career was in Central Wa in the area I grew up in and loved every minute of it. After 4 seasons there I moved to Idaho to obtain Idaho residency and go to school in Moscow. I got hooked on the Forest I worked on in Idaho as it had and still has that oldcshool feel to it where work centers and guard stations are still very much active and many of the lookouts are still manned. The Forest supervisor then (still is the supervisor) is top class and works for the public and knows what their job is. The district rangers are not the public’s enemy and work with the public. That Forest still logs a crap ton with their own timber management crews and still grazes a ton. After I worked on that Forest for 3 seasons I got my in to a permanent employee status and decided to explore eastern Oregon a little bit. I worked at a cool area and it to be honest had many pros and cons but a con as I didn’t feel like Oregon was where I wanted to be. I came back to Idaho and seen some things I won’t get started about and moved on from that Forest back to region 1 in Idaho (that first Idaho Forest), where it’s just calling me to come home and stay there for the long term.

I like fire, I just don’t like it I love it. I don’t attend weddings in the summer and have missed family events and stuff but don’t care as to be honest spending the last 6 summers living in the woods is cool. I’m not at the stage or my life where I need a woman and still have adventuring years left and choose the woods over women. Having the opportunity to go out in the woods everyday in the summer and hear the birds chirp and elk talk is something I know many don’t have a clue about in the USA on actually how cool it is. To be able to go on a paid vacation almost every year (Fire preposition severity assignments) has allowed me to explore some places out west where I never would go to on my off time. Going on fire assignments all across the west has allowed me to connect with different cultures and people in future years (just like a conversation I had yesterday) People think I’m a foreigner when I talk about my woods and fire experiences at a coffee shop in cities.


Annual leave accrual and retirement (TSP if you’re enrolled in it being in the USN) kind of suck to be honest. The only other job in the federal land management agencies I can see myself doing besides Fire is being an LEO and I think you should look into it. LEOs are needed badly and really it’s a job that many like if they’re in a cool area with not many pieces of shit humans. Timber, recreation, or any other job on the Forest service doesn’t pay that well compared to private sector. Many people I know leave the Forest service to join the private sector companies and I don’t blame them. If I wanted to use my forestry degree and be a forester, I’d join a private sector company before I ever thought about applying for Forest service timber permanent jobs.

So a general recap-
pros: Apply to where you want to live and work and you can change jobs whenever you want as long as you apply for it and get it. Meet people and see some cool area and get paid for it. GREAT SUMMER JOB For college students or those needing some excitement for a summer after getting out of military or transitioning careers.

Cons: tons of bullshit and hard to fire people, pay sucks outside of wildland fire (structure pays more too), HR is a disaster, employees who are there for a guaranteed paycheck and not there to contribute to the Forest Services mission, cliques started from the management down to the lower todemn pole, disgruntled employees, absolute trash of an Employee assistance Program as far as mental health counseling goes.


With your military experience and education, I bet it wouldn’t be that hard for you to get picked up by a private sector timber company or a natural resource management company if you wanted to work for one.

As far as contracting side of things go, definitely is money to be made there as far as Fire contracts to road building contracts to other contracts such as analysis. My buddy replaces culverts when he’s not on fires and had a few pieces of equipment on fires for 110 days last year. Think of that money he brought in….

You could also go into consulting. Future is bright with any sort of natural resources degrees these days.


Edit: I got to mention my trail contract days with another old retired guy. We used to clear out 100 miles of backcountry trails a year and had a lot of fun. Unfortunately he passed away a few weeks ago.

Wow, thanks for the detailed response. I really appreciate it. I’m heading in to the ship now but will think on this today and follow up more thoroughly tonight.

Again, thanks!

 

[FLATHEAD]

I dont work for USFS but am a Fed. Employee (21 years).
It aint what it used to be.

 

[gbflyer]

My classmate retired Navy after 20. He went to the USFS straight out of the service. He didn’t make it 3 months. He’s now loving life collecting his retirement and working for United Airlines part time humping baggage to stay in shape.