Chronic BH Left of FP

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Hoping to get some advice on broadhead tuning. Going to try not to word vomit but still provide a full picture of the issue.

Over the past year and a half, I have shot 3 different bows, Matthews Outback, PSE Brute Force Lite, and now an Elite Artus.
On all 3 bows, I have used:

Draw Length: 28.5
Weight: 70 lb on the Matthews and PSE. My current Elite is 72 lbs

Rest: Trophy Ridge Whisker Biscuit, V-Max Biscuit, and now QAD hunter Drop Away
Release: Scott Little Goose 2 Index
Sights: Trophy Ridge React H4 and now HHA Optimizer Lite
Arrows: Easton Hunter 6.5 (340 spine) and Victory VAP TKO Elite V1 (350 spine) (both factory parts, no tinkering on different inserts/outserts and vanes)
Broadheads: All 100 Grain
- Montec M3
- Magnus Stinger Buzzcut
- QAD Exodus Swept
- Grim Reaper - Razorcut SS Whitetail Special 2" 3 Blade
- Grim Reaper - Razortip 1 3/8" 3 Blade

Every single combination I have tried, on every bow, with every arrow and broadhead has the same thing happen. The BH hits about 4 inches left out to about 30ish yards (mechanicals and fixed). The only exception was the Montec M3 which hit high and left.

I have tried:
- Moving all of the rest all the way to left and all the way to the right and walk back tuning
- Twisting nocks
- My Elite was a small adjustment feature for tail left/tail right that I have tinkered with. It has made some of the shots get much wider, but never any closer than 3-4 inches.
- Changing grips drastically. ie. lots of tension, almost no tension, different finger and palm placement

I have spoke with my closest bow shop. They do not think I am over or under spined. They are the ones who have set up each bow so they are pretty confident that they are set up right, although I am almost positive I can sometimes see arrows almost wobbling in the air when I shoot.

Recently I have noticed a little bit of contact on the right prong of my rest from the vanes but that has only just recently been a thing so I don't think it is the root cause of the issue.

I am at a point where I generally know when I send a crappy shot vs a good shot. I am definitely not shanking every single BH shot. Especially since I can consistently group them 3-4 inches left.

Last hunting season drove me crazy having to constantly re-sight in for BH every time I wanted to hunt. I like to shoot pretty much daily so I have got to get my BH and FP to hit the same. I also have shot out a Morrel dice BH target and a 3D target due to constantly shooting BH's last season. Between burning through targets, trying different rest and BH, I am burning money.

Does anyone have anything I can try to fix this? I have ran out of ideas and do not have any local resources or friends who are competent in bows. I am starting to question the tuning of my bow shop as well, although idk if the problem is them or me or something else.

***EDIT —> Solution Found***
In case anyone has a similar issue and doesn’t want to read the whole thing, my issue was too much facial pressure. Lots of good recommendations in this thread though, so check them out if you are having a tough time BH tuning.

 

[Wheels]

Have you paper tuned?

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Have you paper tuned?

At the shop yes, on my own, no.

 

[Wheels]

Since you have been moving your rest, I would do it again. Get it shooting bullet holes and then try micro adjustments with broadheads.
You may be putting some face contact into the equation, try adjusting your anchor and see if that helps.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Since you have been moving your rest, I would do it again. Get it shooting bullet holes and then try micro adjustments with broadheads.
You may be putting some face contact into the equation, try adjusting your anchor and see if that helps.

I should probably clarify. After I spent about 2 weeks moving the rest back and forth with broadheads around February I took the boy back to the local shot and got it back shooting correct through paper. Since then I have not adjusted, just been shooting FP’s. I will definitely tinker with face pressure tonight though. My anchor point has only had one significant change since first starting out.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Have you tried any tuning methods other than adjusting rest windage? Mathews Outback has a fixed yoke on the idler wheel that can be used for left/right tuning. I believe PSE Brute Force also has a fixed yoke. Elite Artus has the SET feature. Because you’re having the same problem with all 3 bows, I suspect the root cause is form-related but you might try twisting yokes and adjusting SET anyway.

As mentioned above, try adjusting your face pressure on the string. You could also try adjusting draw length. I haven’t personally used DL adjustment as a tuning technique, but too short of a DL can supposedly cause broadheads to hit left of field points (for a right-handed shooter, vice versa for a lefty). Below is a handy tuning guide that lists some different things you can try (says Mathews but also applies to other makes).

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Have you tried any tuning methods other than adjusting rest windage? Mathews Outback has a fixed yoke on the idler wheel that can be used for left/right tuning. I believe PSE Brute Force also has a fixed yoke. Elite Artus has the SET feature. Because you’re having the same problem with all 3 bows, I suspect the root cause is form-related but you might try twisting yokes and adjusting SET anyway.

As mentioned above, try adjusting your face pressure on the string. You could also try adjusting draw length. I haven’t personally used DL adjustment as a tuning technique, but too short of a DL can supposedly cause broadheads to hit left of field points (for a right-handed shooter, vice versa for a lefty). Below is a handy tuning guide that lists some different things you can try (says Mathews but also applies to other makes).

View attachment 870530

I have tinkered with the SET system on the Elite. It actually made things worse at some points opening up to 6 inches left. I eventually got it adjusted to where it was back at about 4 inches left. It never did get any better. I have not messed with the Yoke on the Matthews or PSE. I don't have the PSE anymore but do still have the Matthews and Elite. I will have to google that for the Matthews. Not even sure exactly what that means.

I am definitely going to try reducing any face pressure over the next few days. Plan to make a trip to a different bow shop that says they can assist in BH tuning. Hoping they can help ID anything I am doing wrong or that is wrong with the tune.

I tend to think it is me that is the problem, but it is hard to totally buy into that when my FP's go exactly where I want consistently, and BH's consistently group tight, but left.

 

[Beendare]

@Mighty Mouse is right on.

The fact that its the same with 3 diff bows would indicate is the shooter- or the shooter is doing the same thing wrong on bow tuning.

Think of it this way; what the BH/FP is telling you is the arrow is not coming out of the bow perfectly aligned- be it contact, form imperfection or bow setting..

Then its just a matter of going through the steps;
Arrow- assembled perfect, not underspined, no contact------Check
Form- Record your shooting from different angles. As MM mentioned, Too much face pressure means you aren't pulling straight back.
Bow- tuning adjustments.Start from the beginning with cam rollover

Sorry- I know that doesn't narrow it down but you do that by process of elimination.

One thing on tuning; Make TINY adjustments, like 1/32" and only move one thing at a time.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Not even sure exactly what that means.

The yoke is the end portion of the cable where it splits into a Y. The “legs” of the Y hook onto opposite ends of the cam/wheel axle. Yoke tuning is making slight adjustments to the lengths of the yoke legs by twisting or untwisting the legs. Twists should generally be applied to both legs in equal and opposite amounts (e.g., if you add 2 twists to the left leg, subtract 2 twists from the right leg). Shortening a yoke leg causes that leg to pull harder on its end of the axle, which causes the cam/wheel to lean more in that direction. Yoke tuning changes cam/wheel lean, which changes how the nocking point on the string moves in the horizontal plane as the arrow is launched. The guide I shared above shows which yoke leg to twist/untwist based on how your arrow is flying. Yoke tuning requires a bow press because you need to relieve tension on the cable so you can slip the yokes off the axles and add/subtract twists. Example photo below of a single cam bow with a static/fixed yoke attached to the idler wheel axle.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

@Mighty Mouse is right on.

The fact that its the same with 3 diff bows would indicate is the shooter- or the shooter is doing the same thing wrong on bow tuning.

I think that is what is difficult. Is it something in my form or is it something in the tuning.

Think of it this way; what the BH/FP is telling you is the arrow is not coming out of the bow perfectly aligned- be it contact, form imperfection or bow setting..

Then its just a matter of going through the steps;
Arrow- assembled perfect, not underspined, no contact------Check

Do you see benefit in trying a stiffer and weaker spine if facial pressure is not the issue? I am starting with face pressure either way.

Form- Record your shooting from different angles. As MM mentioned, Too much face pressure means you aren't pulling straight back.
Bow- tuning adjustments.Start from the beginning with cam rollover

Going to have to look into what cam rollover is.

Sorry- I know that doesn't narrow it down but you do that by process of elimination.

One thing on tuning; Make TINY adjustments, like 1/32" and only move one thing at a time.

Is it reasonable to expect a shop to be able to assist with this or do most people just figure it out solo?

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

The yoke is the end portion of the cable where it splits into a Y. The “legs” of the Y hook onto opposite ends of the cam/wheel axle. Yoke tuning is making slight adjustments to the lengths of the yoke legs by twisting or untwisting the legs. Twists should generally be applied to both legs in equal and opposite amounts (e.g., if you add 2 twists to the left leg, subtract 2 twists from the right leg). Shortening a yoke leg causes that leg to pull harder on its end of the axle, which causes the cam/wheel to lean more in that direction. Yoke tuning changes cam/wheel lean, which changes how the nocking point on the string moves in the horizontal plane as the arrow is launched. The guide I shared above shows which yoke leg to twist/untwist based on how your arrow is flying. Yoke tuning requires a bow press because you need to relieve tension on the cable so you can slip the yokes off the axles and add/subtract twists. Example photo below of a single cam bow with a static/fixed yoke attached to the idler wheel axle.
View attachment 870578

Gotcha, I would definitely have to go to a shop for something like that. I don't currently own a press. Hopefully will get into that in another year or 2 though. I'm already tired of needing a shop to do everything.

 

[Sizthediz]

Maybe try a little light thumb /index finger pressure on front of riser . See if you can clean it up

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Since you have been moving your rest, I would do it again. Get it shooting bullet holes and then try micro adjustments with broadheads.
You may be putting some face contact into the equation, try adjusting your anchor and see if that helps.

Just got done adjusting face pressure with the Matthew’s Outback. I moved my anchor point to where I was barely touching my face and it instantly changed my point of impact to the right. I then moved the whisker biscuit to the left a tad and now my magnus buzz cut stingers are hitting about a 1/4 inch left of my FP. I’ll spend more time smoothing it out but the face pressure was definitely the major issue. Going to head back out and try it on my Elite Artus. I am assuming it will be the same issue. Thanks a ton for recommending it. I never would have thought I was putting that much pressure on the string with my face but I clearly was. Shot 10 groups of a BH and FP back to back and consistently staying inside the 3 inch white circle together, usually within a 1/4 inch of each other at 20 yards.

 

[ATL]

All good recommendations above.

I would add you may wish to try a stiffer spine, either a 300 shaft, or shorten the 340 shafts if they are currently longer than required. The arrow could be approximately 27” with your 28.5” draw length.

I know FOC is not everything, but I always build arrows with approximately 150 gr. up front to ensure a decent forward CG (12-15%). I can then comfortably adjust fletch number, size, and configuration to obtain good flight without worrying about the added fletch weight to get there.

You said you are using the stock fletch, which I assume is straight or very slight offset. I always set a helical configuration when shooting broadheads, This makes the entire system much more forgiving to minor form errors, tune errors, and slight occasional contact.

 

[gburk]

Maybe try a little light thumb /index finger pressure on front of riser . See if you can clean it up


View attachment 870628

I agree with this- see if you can move BH left and right by consciously adding bow hand torque.

 

[RELIANT]

Just got done adjusting face pressure with the Matthew’s Outback. I moved my anchor point to where I was barely touching my face and it instantly changed my point of impact to the right. I then moved the whisker biscuit to the left a tad and now my magnus buzz cut stingers are hitting about a 1/4 inch left of my FP. I’ll spend more time smoothing it out but the face pressure was definitely the major issue. Going to head back out and try it on my Elite Artus. I am assuming it will be the same issue. Thanks a ton for recommending it. I never would have thought I was putting that much pressure on the string with my face but I clearly was. Shot 10 groups of a BH and FP back to back and consistently staying inside the 3 inch white circle together, usually within a 1/4 inch of each other at 20 yards.

Glad you figured it out...I was going to comment face pressure pushing your nock to the right and broadhead left or hand torque. Seems like every spring I have to work on my form and get back to consistency watching the face and bow hand until I get back into the groove. Just finally getting back to where I was last Fall.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

All good recommendations above.

I would add you may wish to try a stiffer spine, either a 300 shaft, or shorten the 340 shafts if they are currently longer than required. The arrow could be approximately 27” with your 28.5” draw length.

I know FOC is not everything, but I always build arrows with approximately 150 gr. up front to ensure a decent forward CG (12-15%). I can then comfortably adjust fletch number, size, and configuration to obtain good flight without worrying about the added fletch weight to get there.

You said you are using the stock fletch, which I assume is straight or very slight offset. I always set a helical configuration when shooting broadheads, This makes the entire system much more forgiving to minor form errors, tune errors, and slight occasional contact.

It wound up being a face pressure issue. I was able to get my Matthews hitting same POI with fixed BH and FP. Got my elite hitting same POI with my mechanical Grim Reapers and FP. Also reduced the gap between my fixed magnus and FP to just 2 inches. Ran out of time to adjust my rest on my elite, but I am sure it adjusting it will close the gap between the magnus and FP.

Once I finally close the door on BH tuning, I will probably start trying to learn more about arrows. As I currently stand, I don’t fully understand weights, FOC, helical, etc. I have just had to take whatever is factory available and use it.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Glad you figured it out...I was going to comment face pressure pushing your nock to the right and broadhead left or hand torque. Seems like every spring I have to work on my form and get back to consistency watching the face and bow hand until I get back into the groove. Just finally getting back to where I was last Fall.

The downside is now my anchor point is wish washy. I was definitely using the pressure I pushed into my face as a reference point. Fortunately I’ve got plenty of time to smooth that out before I hunt anything. I also noticed it shrunk my groups quite a bit.

 

[Sizthediz]

The downside is now my anchor point is wish washy. I was definitely using the pressure I pushed into my face as a reference point. Fortunately I’ve got plenty of time to smooth that out before I hunt anything. I also noticed it shrunk my groups quite a bit.

you can try to focus on string touching nose and then string barely touching cheek bone.
That's what I have to do to avoid jamming my face into string

 

[Beendare]

I think that is what is difficult. Is it something in my form or is it something in the tuning.

Do you see benefit in trying a stiffer and weaker spine if facial pressure is not the issue? I am starting with face pressure either way.

Going to have to look into what cam rollover is.

Is it reasonable to expect a shop to be able to assist with this or do most people just figure it out solo?

It might be oversimplifying, but with a hunting bow, you do not want to be under spined...or close to under spined. I know, I know- some pros tell us under spined is more forgiving. It's one of the rare cases I disagree with those pros. Those guys mostly shoot FP's and low pro short mech heads.

Consider; those pros are like machines; exact and consistent every time. A noodle arrow works in that case. But then put a BH on there that can plane out of the bow if its not perfectly aligned...or a hunt scenario where you might have less than perfect form and IMO, you want the stiffer arrow thats less likely to noodle in a different way.
I have always shot a spine size over...or slightly stiff and never had a bow that wouldn't shoot fixed BH's to the same POA as my FP's at 50y.


I can push arrows to the side by increasing face pressure- so yeah, it's a thing. You want to be anchored in the same place but no need to pull hard into your face vs straight back.

Cam Timing, it's when the cams roll over at the exact same time. Some bows shoot a little better with the top cam hitting the stop 1/16 early, or vice versa.

Shops can do it but I would offer to pay them for their time- which could take longer than you think. I have all of the stuff at home.

The good news is once you know the tuning process- it's much easier after that.

Yours could be as simple as you might have been moving the rest too much at one time.