Copper vs Bonded vs Cup and Core

[Taprack9]

Since I started using copper I never looked back. Great results and no chance of lead contamination for myself or the critters.

 

[OXN939]

Thats kinda my dilemma too. They are long for the weight which could cause mag box length issues, especially in my WSM.

But, the lighter copper mono you mention retains the same weight and is effectively the same in terms of terminal ballistics as a heavier lead core bullet. Only difference I've found is copper being more consistent.

I started a thread on this probably almost a year ago and received a lot of really vitriolic responses. I actually learned a lot. For one thing, I am a myopic, communist-loving sheep who wants to destroy America by shooting copper bullets. Also, eating a little powdered lead just puts hair on your chest. No health concern there.

 

[Squincher]

But, the lighter copper mono you mention retains the same weight and is effectively the same in terms of terminal ballistics as a heavier lead core bullet. Only difference I've found is copper being more consistent.

I started a thread on this probably almost a year ago and received a lot of really vitriolic responses. I actually learned a lot. For one thing, I am a myopic, communist-loving sheep who wants to destroy America by shooting copper bullets. Also, eating a little powdered lead just puts hair on your chest. No health concern there.

There is no health concern there. Depending on how successful I am in a given year, 50% - 90% of the meat I eat has been shot with lead bullets. I've had annual lead level testing for my job for about the last 15 years and it has never been elevated.

 

[OXN939]

There is no health concern there. Depending on how successful I am in a given year, 50% - 90% of the meat I eat has been shot with lead bullets. I've had annual lead level testing for my job for about the last 15 years and it has never been elevated.

Your individual blood lead levels coming back normal at the time of a test does not mean there is no concern. 1, you may be conservative with the meat you trim from around a wound channel. Others may be less so. 2, the amount of lead deposited in game and the distance it travels from a wound channel vary greatly by firearm and individual circumstance. Just because your game doesn't have it does not mean that others' won't. 3, having normal blood lead levels on one test a year does not mean there is no concern. Your body gets rid of lead from your bloodstream relatively quickly. So, if you have a large exposure event and then get tested two or three months later, your test will indicate that your levels are normal even though you have, in all probability, sustained some degree of neurological and/or endocrine damage.

This is getting to be a cliché, but it's true. The etymology of the word "plumbing" comes from the Latin "plomb." It means "lead." A lot of historians now think that the collapse of the Roman empire had to do with them drinking out of lead pipes and eating off lead plates. Just because you can't see its effects happening in front of you doesn't mean they're not happening.

 

[Squincher]

Your individual blood lead levels coming back normal at the time of a test does not mean there is no concern. 1, you may be conservative with the meat you trim from around a wound channel. Others may be less so. 2, the amount of lead deposited in game and the distance it travels from a wound channel vary greatly by firearm and individual circumstance. Just because your game doesn't have it does not mean that others' won't. 3, having normal blood lead levels on one test a year does not mean there is no concern. Your body gets rid of lead from your bloodstream relatively quickly. So, if you have a large exposure event and then get tested two or three months later, your test will indicate that your levels are normal even though you have, in all probability, sustained some degree of neurological and/or endocrine damage.

This is getting to be a cliché, but it's true. The etymology of the word "plumbing" comes from the Latin "plomb." It means "lead." A lot of historians now think that the collapse of the Roman empire had to do with them drinking out of lead pipes and eating off lead plates. Just because you can't see its effects happening in front of you doesn't mean they're not happening.

I have numbers, you have maybes. Show me data because I don't care what sounds good in your head.

 

[OXN939]

I have numbers, you have maybes. Show me data because I don't care what sounds good in your head.

Sure thing! Here is the WHO's explanation of why your original assertion that "There is no concern there" is wrong. It also goes in depth explaining why even low levels of detected lead are a concern:

Lead poisoning

Lead is a naturally occurring toxic metal found in the Earth’s crust. Its widespread use has resulted in extensive environmental contamination, human exposure and significant public health problems in many parts of the world.

www.who.int

And here is one by the North Dakota department of health, not exactly a liberal bastion intent on outlawing lead ammo or anything, linking game animals shot with lead to higher blood lead levels in hunters:

http://www.ndhealth.gov/lead/venison/fact%20sheet%20blood%20lead%20level%20study%20results.pdf

And here is one explaining why a normal blood lead level test is inconclusive and does not provide much useful information about cumulative exposure. If you want to know what your lifetime exposure has been, and how much damage has been done to your body, you need a bone test.

Lead Toxicity and Human Health | Bone Lead Testing Facility

I can find my old blood lead level tests from when I was active duty and the letter written by the physician explaining exactly the phenomenon outlined above if you'd like. It's in my medical record somewhere. To reiterate, I have no dog in this fight; you're the one eating your game meat. Just passing along some information that would probably help a lot of people if it were more widely disseminated.

 

[Squincher]

Sure thing! Here is the WHO's explanation of why your original assertion that "There is no concern there" is wrong. It also goes in depth explaining why even low levels of detected lead are a concern:

Lead poisoning

Lead is a naturally occurring toxic metal found in the Earth’s crust. Its widespread use has resulted in extensive environmental contamination, human exposure and significant public health problems in many parts of the world.

www.who.int

And here is one by the North Dakota department of health, not exactly a liberal bastion intent on outlawing lead ammo or anything, linking game animals shot with lead to higher blood lead levels in hunters:

http://www.ndhealth.gov/lead/venison/fact%20sheet%20blood%20lead%20level%20study%20results.pdf

And here is one explaining why a normal blood lead level test is inconclusive and does not provide much useful information about cumulative exposure. If you want to know what your lifetime exposure has been, and how much damage has been done to your body, you need a bone test.

Lead Toxicity and Human Health | Bone Lead Testing Facility

I can find my old blood lead level tests from when I was active duty and the letter written by the physician explaining exactly the phenomenon outlined above if you'd like. It's in my medical record somewhere. To reiterate, I have no dog in this fight; you're the one eating your game meat. Just passing along some information that would probably help a lot of people if it were more widely disseminated.

Neither the WHO or Icahn articles addressed lead exposure from eating wild game, and every single person in the ND study had lead levels in the normal range. People have been eating meat shot with lead bullets for going on 400 years, surely who you can point to someone who had a problem....if it is a problem.

 

[OXN939]

Neither the WHO or Icahn articles addressed lead exposure from eating wild game

True. Those links were included simply to point out that the assumptions you made initially, such as

I've had annual lead level testing for my job for about the last 15 years and it has never been elevated. There is no health concern there.

are totally wrong. One person getting blood lead level tests within normal parameters means virtually nothing. Since you are interested in reading another study about hunter blood lead levels, here is one. I'll link however many more you want.

Lead Bullet Fragments in Wild Game

Information about possible lead contamination of wild game meat.

portal.ct.gov

Again, feel free to disregard all of this. You're the one affected by what's in your food.

 

[Squincher]

True. Those links were included simply to point out that the assumptions you made initially, such as



are totally wrong. One person getting blood lead level tests within normal parameters means virtually nothing. Since you are interested in reading another study about hunter blood lead levels, here is one. I'll link however many more you want.

Lead Bullet Fragments in Wild Game

Information about possible lead contamination of wild game meat.

portal.ct.gov

Again, feel free to disregard all of this. You're the one affected by what's in your food.

From the article you linked:

To date, there have not been any cases of human illnesses linked to lead particles in hunter-harvested venison.

Got anything that says eating game meat harvested with lead bullets is dangerous?

So, my lead levels testing normal despite eating lead bullet shot meat means virtually nothing, but you hang your hat on hand wringing supposition and articles that say no damage has ever been done to anyone?

 

[OXN939]

From the article you linked:



Got anything that says eating game meat harvested with lead bullets is dangerous?

So, my lead levels testing normal despite eating lead bullet shot meat means virtually nothing, but you hang your hat on hand wringing supposition and articles that say no damage has ever been done to anyone?

Hey bud. Nobody is forcing you to do anything. Just to recap, though, you literally asked me for numbers. When I gave you multiple scientific, peer-reviewed studies in response, the best you could do is cherry pick one generic line in an effort to find something that doesn't make you sound like you were wrong about pretty much every opinion you have expressed. A few screenshots for simplification. Have a good night.

 

[brsnow]

Tobacco companies said the same thing for decades, no direct link to health issues. Hindsight, common sense would say inhaling smoke/chemicals is a bad idea. I don’t need proof to understand eating lead is a bad idea, especially when you can accomplish the same outcome with lead free alternatives.

 

[rootacres]

Bump

 

[dla]

Edited: I can't believe I didn't notice that this was a necro-thread. My apologies.....

I'm old school and I believe learning to shoot is more important than bullet worship.
If the cheap cup&core bullet gets you more trigger time - then I think it is the better bullet.
I have never seen an animal lost because of bullet failure. But I have seen animals lost because of poor shooting.

Just this spring my son and I were having this conversation over a bear he just put in the freezer. He used a 125gr Nosler Ballistic Tip from a 308 launched at 3000fps. He shot the running bear 3 times and recovered two bullets. Both recovered bullets shed their jackets. Both wound tracks were over 1.5" in diameter. Range from 65-200yds. One very dead bear. Pretty decent jump shooting.
Would the accubond make a pretty mushroom like what bullet manufacturers tell you is ideal? Yes. Would the bear be anymore dead? No.

Just my opinion.

 

[gelton]

Thanks for bringing this thread back up, in my original post back on page one I was switching from Berger Hybrids 215 gr out of a .300WM to Nosler Accubond 180 gr.

After some testing and kills with the Accubond, I am thinking about moving back to the Bergers. I was looking for more penetration out of the Nosler but achieved the exact opposite. All animals died and none went far but I didn't get a single pass through which was never the case with the Bergers.

There is something to be said for a bullet expending all of its energy inside of an animal but the Bergers caused more internal damage and were complete pass-throughs compared to the Accubond, which to me was surprising.

Sure, dead is dead, but if you have an option of a higher BC bullet that provides an exit hole and more internal damage, then that is a no-brainer for me. Wish I would have thought about that before I sold (200) 215 Hybrids on here.

 

[hotsoup]

30-06 or 308win, 165 or 180gr partition, for everything up to elk, moose and nilgai. has worked for me for 40 years.

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

Thanks for bringing this thread back up, in my original post back on page one I was switching from Berger Hybrids 215 gr out of a .300WM to Nosler Accubond 180 gr.

After some testing and kills with the Accubond, I am thinking about moving back to the Bergers. I was looking for more penetration out of the Nosler but achieved the exact opposite. All animals died and none went far but I didn't get a single pass through which was never the case with the Bergers.

There is something to be said for a bullet expending all of its energy inside of an animal but the Bergers caused more internal damage and were complete pass-throughs compared to the Accubond, which to me was surprising.

Sure, dead is dead, but if you have an option of a higher BC bullet that provides an exit hole and more internal damage, then that is a no-brainer for me. Wish I would have thought about that before I sold (200) 215 Hybrids on here.

Bonded and copper bullets are the best option for close to medium range hunting in my experience, beyond 500 yards I definitely like Bergers for the bigger wound channel and that's all I'll use for LR hunting.

I have seen thin jacketed bullets completely grenade on close range shoulder shots, and in a few cases the animal covered miles of ground.
That's why I use partitions and monos when hunting timber, I've literally put a 140 partition through the heavy leg bone in the front shoulder of an elk.
That bull went 30 yards and died, the bullet blew through both shoulders and was lodged in the opposite leg bone.
Pretty hard to argue with that

 

[gelton]

Bonded and copper bullets are the best option for close to medium range hunting in my experience, beyond 500 yards I definitely like Bergers for the bigger wound channel and that's all I'll use for LR hunting.

I have seen thin jacketed bullets completely grenade on close range shoulder shots, and in a few cases the animal covered miles of ground.
That's why I use partitions and monos when hunting timber, I've literally put a 140 partition through the heavy leg bone in the front shoulder of an elk.
That bull went 30 yards and died, the bullet blew through both shoulders and was lodged in the opposite leg bone.
Pretty hard to argue with that

This was my train of thought as well and the reason I switched to Accubonds. While I initially went the Berger route for long-range, the 6-8 animals that I have taken with them were all sub 200 yards and they were devastating on all of em' with complete pass-throughs.

The 4-5 animals that I have taken with Accubonds only one exited in the same sub 200-yard ranges which has me 2nd guessing my original premise.

Or would that be 3rd guessing...lol.

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

This was my train of thought as well and the reason I switched to Accubonds. While I initially went the Berger route for long-range, the 6-8 animals that I have taken with them were all sub 200 yards and they were devastating on all of em' with complete pass-throughs.

The 4-5 animals that I have taken with Accubonds only one exited in the same sub 200-yard ranges which has me 2nd guessing my original premise.

Or would that be 3rd guessing...lol.

I've only used the Accubond LR version but it was super explosive on my wife's bull last season, she shot him 3 times in the shoulder and he still required a chase.
You'll see a huge difference in penetration with a partition or copper bullet I'm sure

Pretty cool you're getting pass throughs with the 215’s, I've killed one bull with that bullet but it was 700 yards and it didn't exit.
It Anchored him good though with a marginal hit, the second shot put him flat instantly

 

[Twentyone86]

I’ve used copper bullets of some kind for about the last ten years, with only two kills with lead core ammo just because that’s what I had on hand for that rifle. I like the consistency I’ve had with Barnes TSX bullets through moose, deer and bear. My farthest shot has been at 200 yards. I hadn’t been that concerned with lead, I just liked knowing the bullets wouldn’t totally fragment at a close impact, especially on a
moose that could potentially be caked with mud. Maybe it wouldn’t have mattered. I have recently been using Cutting Edge Bullets and Lehigh Defense bullets in both 45 cal ML and in 375 JDJ. I smacked a deer with the 45 cal CE ML bullet and it was not the same performance as the Barnes ML bullet at all. Totally different animal and with a marginal shot out of a 45 cal pistol, I needed the extra damage the CE bullet caused, and it was quite significant on a 40 yard shot(MV @ 1600+-). The Barnes may have very well caused the same effect but with the CE, that deer looked like it had been struck by lightning and it was not a CNS hit. Also, the accuracy I was getting out of the CE with the blue crush rib sabot was outstanding in a 15” MGM encore pistol barrel.

 

[rootacres]

seeing this question popping up more. . bumping for some help and more info