Copper vs Bonded vs Cup and Core

[Tumbleweed]

The 7mm LRX open up at a minimum of around 1400-1500, Barnes could confirm. I try to keep above 2000, but LRX give you more margin of error.

What Barnes considers "opening" is little more than tip deformation and tiny little petals peeled back in the front of the ogive. That still will most likely be a pass through shot with little damage done to vitals. I think you're wise to keep them above 2000fps.


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[brsnow]

What Barnes considers "opening" is little more than tip deformation and tiny little petals peeled back in the front of the ogive. That still will most likely be a pass through shot with little damage done to vitals. I think you're wise to keep them above 2000fps.


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My .270 has the 129LRX above 2000 at 700 yards, much further than i can shoot. LRX works well close, has good BC and has enough velocity for longer distance

 

[Tumbleweed]

My .270 has the 129LRX above 2000 at 700 yards, much further than i can shoot. LRX works well close, has good BC and has enough velocity for longer distance

Not for my distances, not even close. I will agree that they're generally safe enough inside 600 yards


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[gelton]

The one thing I don't like about copper bullets is that they are so long that you lose case capacity for charge weight and have to shoot a lower grained bullet. Not only do you lose BC but you lose horsepower as well. Kind of a double whammy.

 

[2five7]

What caliber & bullet weight do you prefer?

We've used anything from 6.5's with 140's up to .338 300 grain. They all work well when you don't shoot them in the butt lol. I'd recommend the .284 180, or the .308 215 hybrid to anyone that would listen.

 

[AkMtnRunner]

What velocity / energy would you consider too low? My rifle is a 7mm WSM and my current setup would put me around 1950 fps / 1215 ft.lb with a 145gr LRX at 600 yds. That would be for deer.

I haven't had any impacts below about 2100 fps so I can't really say. I just have read enough to avoid that situation. Some have had good success around Barnes' minimum 1800 fps but I don't need to test it.

 

[SIontheHunt]

I feel the argument is a personal one. Are you scared of eating lead? there is your answer. Do you want to minimize meat loss? Do you want to transfer as much energy as possible inside an animal and compensate for the reality that not every shot is perfect? lead core. Obviously based on animal the exact design is going to vary for optimal performance. I do not reload but the hammers are interesting, they shed weight like a lead core but are non toxic. My fear with those would be biting down on sharp copper shards and possibility of gut holes. This is putting aside drag coefficients and barrel life which could be a forum on its own.

I mostly hunt white tails here in SC so not very big target. While for years i enjoyed the bang flop performance of balistic tips, recently i have all but stopped using a processor. Having to carve through blood shot meat and deal with holes in the guts in the field is annoying to say the least and keeps me from harvesting some organs. I switched to federal fusions (btw i hunt almost exclusively with at .308 win) and shot a deer straight through the heart, exited opposite shoulder. turned the heart to jelly which was great but somehow a petal punched the stomach... not great.

This year I am going to experiment with copper bullets. I am not worried about the lead as I do not believe it is soluble in that form. I am just tired of dealing with holes in the guts when the bullet went nowhere near the stomach. And having to toss so much shoulder meat.

 

[WTFJohn]

I try to shoot monolithic bullets as much as possible now; primarily TTSX or LRX in whatever caliber I'm shooting.

A few years ago a shot a cow at sub 20 yds with a 165 or 180 gr Federal Fusion out of my .300WM. The bullet hit the shoulder and exploded, attaining less than 6" of penetration into the vitals. Since then I've killed/been next to the hunter that killed 8-10 elk/bear/deer/antelope with the TTSX in .308 and .300WM, all but one have been bang-flop or 2-3 steps forward before going down. Ranges from 35 yds to 300+. All achieved great expansion and passed thru.

In the last two years, I've seen two cows taken with 6.5 PRC shooting 143 gr ELDXs. Both were hit tight behind the shoulder (200 yd & 62 yd shots) and took 8-10 steps before going down hard. Large portions of the core and jacket were found under the hide on the opposite shoulder, with smaller fragments along the wound channel.

I'll be shooting the PRC for 4 of my 5 remaining tags using the 127 LRX, hoping to achieve similar terminal performance to the TTSX in the .30cal.

 

[rootacres]

We've used anything from 6.5's with 140's up to .338 300 grain. They all work well when you don't shoot them in the butt lol. I'd recommend the .284 180, or the .308 215 hybrid to anyone that would listen.

Well I’m listening lol. . Thanks for the input. The owner/guide I just hunted with was a big fan of anything 30 cal moving at a decent speed. He had a few guys show up pushing some really fast 7s with the wrong bullet that had some poor results.

 

[w squared]

I've had excellent results with Barnes TTSX 168 grain (out of a .308) and TSX 150 grain (out of a .30-30). I believe that part of why I've had such great results is that all of the game was taken at 100 yards or less, so velocities were quite high for those cartridges.

Now that I'm looking at elk and muleys in the West, I'm very conscious that the distances for likely shots are opening up. Something that surprised me was looking at the expansion that Nosler shows at various speeds for their bullets. Specifically I compared the expansion of their E-Tip copper versus the partition versus accu-bond:

E-tip:

Partition:

Accubond:

Given the initial velocity out of a shorter barrel from a .308 is rather modest, I would be hesitant to use a copper monolithic on elk when it drops below 2200 - which will likely be at 200 yards for my application. To my mind, the Accubond and especially the Partition see to demonstrate appropriate expansion down to a much lower velocity than the monolithics.

 

[rootacres]

I've had excellent results with Barnes TTSX 168 grain (out of a .308) and TSX 150 grain (out of a .30-30). I believe that part of why I've had such great results is that all of the game was taken at 100 yards or less, so velocities were quite high for those cartridges.

Now that I'm looking at elk and muleys in the West, I'm very conscious that the distances for likely shots are opening up. Something that surprised me was looking at the expansion that Nosler shows at various speeds for their bullets. Specifically I compared the expansion of their E-Tip copper versus the partition versus accu-bond:

E-tip:

Partition:

Accubond:

Given the initial velocity out of a shorter barrel from a .308 is rather modest, I would be hesitant to use a copper monolithic on elk when it drops below 2200 - which will likely be at 200 yards for my application. To my mind, the Accubond and especially the Partition see to demonstrate appropriate expansion down to a much lower velocity than the monolithics.

This is what I was looking for. Thank you. I guess the moral of the story is depending on your cartridge monolithic’s could shine or just not expand. For my given rife I’ll have to make sure I pick the right bullet.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

A Partition or an A-Frame is never the wrong choice unless accuracy at your chosen range is inadequate. Given the target is elk vitals, accuracy isn't likely to be a limiting factor with either.

 

[w squared]

This is what I was looking for. Thank you. I guess the moral of the story is depending on your cartridge monolithic’s could shine or just not expand. For my given rife I’ll have to make sure I pick the right bullet.

For your rifle, your barrel length, and the maximum (and potentially minimum) ranges.

For elk, I'd want to have 1500 ft-lbs of energy as a minimum at my self-imposed maximum range, regardless of bullet type.

With something like a Partition, I'd also want a minimum velocity of 1800 (or even 2000) FPS.

With a copper monolithic, I'd be looking for something in the neighborhood of 2500 or 2600 FPS - or very specific evidence that my chosen monolithic bullet will work well at lower velocities. I've been told that the some of the open-tip copper offerings (like the 150 grain .30 cal TSX with a flat nose and flat base) perform well ad more modest velocities. Great for my brush carbine in .30-30 for hogs and deer....but not a great bullet choice for your WSM and mountain hunting.

With a conventional cup and core bullet? (likely designed to ensure liberal expansion at non-magnum velocities in Eastern white-tail deer) I'd think twice about using that bullet for elk, and if I did find myself using it on elk I'd choose a minimum range. Too much velocity at impact can mean that a large amount of trauma will happen in a very shallow area, and that may cost you penetration. I believe that's what happened with the Berger bullet in your original example.

Since you have far more muzzle velocity available in your WSM than I do in my .308 or .376, a monolithic may be a good choice for you. I think that if you run the numbers (I have grown to really like the Hornady on-line ballistic calculator for this) you'll be able to find the cut-off range where you are no longer happy with the expansion that a monolithic would give you. My hunch is that if it's shorter than the range you want to be able to shoot at, it might be an idea to choose a bonded bullet designed specifically for hunting (like an Accubond) or a partitioned bullet.

 

[rootacres]

TTT

 

[ShortMountain91]

I know it's not quite as convenient as a non existent do everything bullet, but why not dual load? Pick something that shines at close range, and back it up in the magazine with something for long range. If it's standing 600 yards away, it won't notice you racking the action one quick time

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[marshland_max]

160 gr Accubonds for me in my 7mm Mags

175 Partitions or Similar also are awesome!

Not much on solid copper bullets these days. I like the notion of no contaminated meat for sure.

 

[FLS]

With the 7 WSM you have plenty of velocity to make the mono bullets work up close and at distance.

 

[Laelkhunter]

Either way I tend to lean towards bonded bullets. My favorite is the Nosler Partition as it kind of covers all angles and does it well.

Nosler partition is a great bullet, but it is not a bonded bullet. If you want a bonded bullet similar to the Partition, the Swift A-Frame fits the bill. It is bonded and built like the Partition.

 

[rootacres]

The one thing I don't like about copper bullets is that they are so long that you lose case capacity for charge weight and have to shoot a lower grained bullet. Not only do you lose BC but you lose horsepower as well. Kind of a double whammy.

Thats kinda my dilemma too. They are long for the weight which could cause mag box length issues, especially in my WSM.

 

[gmchenry]

I think the Hammer hunter is a very good bullet. Myself and a few of my buddies have taken mule deer and black tail ranging from about 50 yards out to 500 so nothing really long yet with caliber ranging from 260 Remington up to my 300 Norma improved everything has worked fantastic absolutely no bloodshot or wasted meat but great expansion and very consistent