Covid positive hospital patient visitation policy

[fwafwow]

Some added context - the hospital has not asked for my father’s vaccination card (although perhaps it is in their records from a prior surgery) or offered (at least yet) anyone to visit who has had Covid and been vaccinated (all immediate family), with or without PPE. When he was there the first time for low O2 and tested positive, the same visitation policy was applied but they released him (back to assisted living) without any special instructions regarding possible continued transmission to others.

Thanks again to all who have replied.

 

[Fatcamp]

I’ll tell you the doctors have no say. It’s all administrative.


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For us it is a policy but the hospitalist teams determine when patients come off precautions.

I think the isolation of patients was the hardest thing I had to deal with in caring for patients during the pandemic. Some of those times will be with me forever.

ETA: Changed hospitality to hospitalist.

 

[NB7]

Situations like these are why the quote about how pandemic rules "will be remembered by the younger generation as a catastrophic moral crime" is so accurate.
So very sorry for what I'm sure is incredible stress and frustration upon you and your family.
I hope you can get this resolved in your favor as quickly as possible, and wish a speedy recovery for your father.

 

[.204smokechaser]

One of my former neighbors passed away at 97 last fall from a stroke and some of the asshole hospital employees in an unnamed hospital in Washington state wouldn’t let her husband of 79 years and son in to be with her in her final moments initially. It took some hell to be raised and some gracious county deputies and other hospital employees that knew the dying patient to let them be with her.

 

[fwafwow]

Update - my sister is on the case and has spoken to the nurse who promised a call from the doctor, and who said they are going with a 14 day isolation policy. She’s also calling the case worker. I don’t like the variation I’m hearing on the policy (14 days vs doctor discretion), but 14 days from his first positive test is today. Fingers crossed. Otherwise I’m flying up there tomorrow to appear in person and calling in any favors from anyone I know and can find who has connections. I may be overreacting but I don’t want to look back and wonder if I could have done more.

 

[Bubblehide]

You need to provide the hospital a legal reason to talk to you. A patient advocate can be appointed, often meaning the hospital is provided documents giving a single person power of attorney regarding medical decision on behalf of the patient. Under the patient bill of rights, the legal advocate has the same rights as the patient. With this they at minimum MUST talk to you, provide you the treatment plan (in detail), and condition updates. With power of attorney, you would very likely get in to visit as that could be considered a violation of the patient bill of rights.

Each hospital has an Ombudsmen (AKA social worker). Their specific job is to act as a liaison between the hospital and patient/advocate issues. What I would do, is research the patient bill of rights and document any and all violations, by date. It would greatly help to have the patients medical records. Look at the doctors signatures, as there should be an assigned doctor. The paperwork often says the assigned doctor was the doctor that saw the patient on any given day, but there is often a different signature. The assigned doctor should be the primary doctor seeing the patient. Also research the hospitals policies and look for violations, there very often are.

The last time I did the above, there were 17 different government oversight agencies for the medical field (all applied to hospitals), the minimum fine was $10,000.00 per violation, per agency, and most often comes with the agency direct oversight (careers are ended when this happens). In my case, my wife had breast cancer. I went to the social worker with 19 letters, 17 preaddressed to the government agencies. As I told the social worker, my objective was to get my wife the treatment she deserves and I wanted a meeting with the chief Oncologist within 5 days. The chief Oncologist attempted to get me to move my wife to another hospital, as that would end the issue for them as only patient issues are investigated, a moved patient is no longer a patient. Honestly, we could have had all the money in the world, and still could not have paid for better care.

If the patient is conscious, a part of my argument in my documentation would be that the no visitor policy is damaging the patient psychologically/emotionally.

Best wishes!!!!!!!!

 

[ODB]

Absurd that hospitals are still keeping families from seeing patients.

I am a nurse and have worked in the ER and ICU since this pandemic started. Facilitating family presence at the bedside is essential in the healing process and also in the grieving process.

My hospital had the stupid no visitor policy when COVID first hit. We got rid of that after a couple months because too many people were dying alone. We now allow COVID patients to have one visitor at a time, or up to 6 if death is imminent.

There are dozens of studies that show that family presence actually helps people heal quicker.

I encourage you to have a calm and rational conversation with hospital admin about visiting. The nurses have no say when it comes to visitation. Although i will say I use to violate the visitation policy often and let people come visit their sick family. I found it barbaric to keep people separated.

Yup. At the wife’s hospital an older guy came in to the ER but they wouldn’t let his wife go with him. She went back to her car to wait. She had a stroke and died in the car.

Such compassion, such care.

And if I ever see another dancing nurses video pimping the vax I might go postal.

 

[5MilesBack]

Gosh, you'd think that IF "masks work", they'd allow family in with masks. But even more so, why the heck is it the hospital's responsibility whether family members choose the risk of getting Covid by being there.......over the perceived safety of a 14-day isolation period. It's such crap that so many seem to think that it's their responsibility to dictate what risks other Americans take or expose themselves to every day.

In 2020 my wife's father got Covid in the nursing home he was in. At that time, the nursing homes would not allow visitors. He was put in the hospital, and the hospital wouldn't allow visitors. He died after three weeks.

In 2021, my mom went into the hospital four days after getting her second Pfizer shot. She didn't have Covid, but visitors weren't allowed. Luckily we have a family friend that "was" a nurse there, so she would check on her often. They released her to a nursing home to "rehab" before going home. The home didn't allow visitors but I dropped off her cell phone and Ipad so we could communicate. Well, communication stopped and the home had no answers until a couple days later when they called to say she took a turn for the worse and was back to the hospital. This time we got access to see her, but by that time......I walked into her room and told the case manager "THAT is not my mom". She was so far gone at that point, they approved Hospice and sent her to the Hospice home and she passed that night. And she didn't even have Covid........she had Covid "shots". SMH

 

[bobinmi]

Our policies are set by hospital administration. I'm the one who typically gets tasked with enforcing the policy as a Security officer. The best advice I can give is to do your best to be cordial with staff even if you're pissed. I've had several situations that ended with a trespass notice instead of a vist because the visitor/family member went ballistic as soon as they were told the policy and didn't give anyone an opportunity to sort through the situation and look for viable alternatives. Not to mention the fact that nursing staff is overworked and understaffed right now, tempers and emotions are strained.

 

[Marbles]

Has anyone recently encountered the policy of “no visitors” when an admitted patient has tested positive for Covid? We are having some challenges in speaking to anyone about how long this policy applies to a hospital in Ohio. My 93 year old father tested positive two weeks ago tomorrow and he’s been in this hospital twice and is isolated. The isolation is becoming a real mental and emotional health problem.

It’s a bit of a vicious circle - the decision on whether and when to lift the isolation policy apparently rests with the doctor, who is too busy to communicate (and his only feedback to the nurse was “not today”). The nurses are busy but can speak to us and seem empathetic. The front desk says there is no administration person to talk to - “call the nurses’ station.” The Patient Rights number goes to voicemail. But we are concerned the admin or Patient Rights people will just say to call the station, and/or piss off the people who are caring for our father.

Any suggestions on how to get the policy lifted would be much appreciated. EDIT - this isn’t a state law issue, as other hospitals in Ohio have a different policy.

For time frame, if someone who needs oxygen, the CDC is 20 days after infection for ending isolation. So, on day 21. There are things that can modify that, but the facility (usually the physician) should be able to explain those to you if any apply.

Hospitalist will change over. It is reasonable to call daily and ask for an update. You may not get one. That could be because of a provider with poor people skills, or because the providers are swamped. However, it is still reasonable to call. Obviously, if you do not have a question that only a provider can answer, then don't call the provider every day.

My advice is ask for an update on his condition and treatment plan. Then ask for the duration of isolation. In the end, you are both on the same team. Aim for an interaction that is consistent with that.

As a heads up, if it has not been discussed already, it is pretty standard to discuss goals of care. This is standered practice (and should have already been discussed) because it enables us to align interventions with what the patient wants. Some providers do these discussions well, sadly, some really suck at it. Just be prepared and don't get worked up over it.

 

[ODB]

For time frame, if someone who needs oxygen, the CDC is 20 days after infection for ending isolation. So, on day 21. There are things that can modify that, but the facility (usually the physician) should be able to explain those to you if any apply.

Hospitalist will change over. It is reasonable to call daily and ask for an update. You may not get one. That could be because of a provider with poor people skills, or because the providers are swamped. However, it is still reasonable to call. Obviously, if you do not have a question that only a provider can answer, then don't call the provider every day.

My advice is ask for an update on his condition and treatment plan. Then ask for the duration of isolation. In the end, you are both on the same team. Aim for an interaction that is consistent with that.

As a heads up, if it has not been discussed already, it is pretty standard to discuss goals of care. This is standered practice (and should have already been discussed) because it enables us to align interventions with what the patient wants. Some providers do these discussions well, sadly, some really suck at it. Just be prepared and don't get worked up over it.

I was told that when the local hospital is operating under emergency conditions they do not have to honor medical directives.

 

[Marbles]

I was told that when the local hospital is operating under emergency conditions they do not have to honor medical directives.

It is generally accepted that providing medically futile care violates the ethical principle of nonmaleficence. As such, even in normal times there is no obligation to honor demands for it.

The legal/ethical principle that allows refusal of medically beneficial care is that providing such care against a person's will constitutes assault. That principal stands regardless of the situation.

Emergency/desaster standards of care are not tested in court. Some states have codified such standards, but you would have to refer to state law. Otherwise it is just trying to make the best of a very bad situation.

Anyway, those situations are complex. I expect to get hammered on here as many will interpret things I'm not saying into those statements and the statements are to simply to capture the very complex issues they cover.

 

[AZ8]

Yup. At the wife’s hospital an older guy came in to the ER but they wouldn’t let his wife go with him. She went back to her car to wait. She had a stroke and died in the car.

Such compassion, such care.

And if I ever see another dancing nurses video pimping the vax I might go postal.

Horrible! If that happened to my mom, well, my life as I know it would be over! I would seek vengeance to all in that hospital!!

 

[Bubblehide]

... But even more so, why the heck is it the hospital's responsibility ...

It all boils down to liability.

Keep in mind that some have long term impacts from having covid, that may impact their ability to work. So if a visitor gives an employee covid, it could turn into a workers comp case. And, if a visitor catches covid while visiting, the hospital has potential liability to that person and all subsequent people infected by that person. In short, having visitors sign a liability release does not cover the whole problem of liability.

 

[ODB]

It all boils down to liability.

Keep in mind that some have long term impacts from having covid, that may impact their ability to work. So if a visitor gives an employee covid, it could turn into a workers comp case. And, if a visitor catches covid while visiting, the hospital has potential liability to that person and all subsequent people infected by that person. In short, having visitors sign a liability release does not cover the whole problem of liability.

I got Covid from a hospital employee who got it from another employee. All vaxxed.

A friend of mine in a completely different hospital system was told she needed to come back to work as soon as her symptoms allowed. She asked if she needed to have a negative test to do so, she was told not to test.

Hospitals may seems to be bastions of care, but administrators are often bottom-feeders.

 

[fwafwow]

I'm sorry not to respond to each of the above posts, but I do have an update which is mostly good news.

My sister was allowed in to see Dad today. Two quick clarifications. First, it seems like the stated 14 day policy wasn't correct (or complete), as my sister was told that the restriction was based on Dad continuing to show respiratory symptoms, which the doctor apparently had improved enough to let her visit today (in just a mask - not full blown PPE). Second, the isolation policy wasn't strictly a Covid transmission concern, she was told it was as much about making sure that family members didn't bring in something else, like the flu, to compound his condition. [Note - I'm getting this third hand - from my sister from the nurse from the doctor - so I suspect there is still some risk of loss in translation.]

The timing on the change was pretty important, as my father sounds like he has pretty much given up. We think it is a combination of being physically tired from the virus, being stressed by the isolation and the "Covid fog", as he seemed fine before getting sick. He's decided he won't go to rehab, and he will never ride in another ambulance or return to the hospital - at least if it is up to him. The next challenge is to get his mindset right and take care of the recovery with in-"home" help.

I'm sorry to have spooled everyone up and I very much appreciate all of the input. I'm a recovering attorney, so I tend to want to get a lot of info ("show me the rules!"), plan in advance to avoid a poor outcome. After being optimistic all day and learning at 5pm there was no progress, day after day, I was starting to get frustrated and wanted to take some action. Luckily my sister was the one in town and honey worked better.

Fingers crossed that the rest is at least more within our control - but I know there's a material chance that it is harder.

 

[Rob5589]

Glad to hear some positivity came about. And you're right, sometimes a gentle nudge and pulling on some heartstrings can be persuasive. Most "worker bees" in medicine understand and want to be as accommodating as possible and will do so to the best of their ability. Unfortunately, they aren't the ones making policy, their just stuck enforcing it.

 

[MattB]

I got Covid from a hospital employee who got it from another employee. All vaxxed.

A friend of mine in a completely different hospital system was told she needed to come back to work as soon as her symptoms allowed. She asked if she needed to have a negative test to do so, she was told not to test.

Hospitals may seems to be bastions of care, but administrators are often bottom-feeders.

One thing to think about which I have seen it personally is that the drugs that are being given in the hospital *may* be negatively affecting your father's state of mind. Getting him home and off the drugs may have a surprising positive impact on his state of mind.

 

[fwafwow]

One thing to think about which I have seen it personally is that the drugs that are being given in the hospital *may* be negatively affecting your father's state of mind. Getting him home and off the drugs may have a surprising positive impact on his state of mind.

Thank you very much. Do you know which ones? I know he was on an IV steroid, and he was prescribed a few other meds when he was discharged the first time (which he was never able to take because he had to go back so quickly). I will ask my sister if she knows of any others, but I suspect she knows only what was volunteered or that she specifically asked about.

The level of communication was pretty weak - but each time one of us did speak to a nurse, she (it was a woman each time) was always empathetic.

 

[TL44]

Sorry to hear about your situation. It seems to change every few days with the ambulances and hospitals we utilize but that policy is not uncommon. It is a frustrating time and doesn't seem to make much sense. I sure hope you can get in there.