Day Six - must spin?

[RampartLB]

For those of you who have a Pine ridge spinner, so you know what the tolerance is on the slip fit of the wheels? Those things look super well made so I’m sure that the bearings in them all are within .0001” which is the spec needed to qualify a .001” so i would assume they’re built that right and well......buy a spinner if you shoot aluminum or if you want piece of mind; BUT don’t come sh*trying on someone else because they don’t do things your way just for your own confirmation bias. I only spin my 2712s and my FMJs when i shot them and that was on a Firenock spin tester, so you’re all wrong! Lol I’m kidding, I don’t spin a dang thing anymore and the animals sure don’t mind. Take that time you’re spending spinning, go shoot your bow, and get some talent to go with that nice fancy well built plastic spinner you’ve got there.

 

[Billy Goat]

Seems like everyone pulled up their big boy pants today.






I'll just sit over here and play in my pull-ups. With my spinny thingy......

 

[Samdemarais]

Was i complaining or was i simply saying the information provided from the manufacturer doesn't line up with what I'm seeing from shops posting videos of the install.

While I appreciate your concern, and the willingness to spend my money, paying $150 for 6 arrows and a spinner is not my intent, thus the question on if spinning is necessary. I was perfectly happy with a dozen easton axis fletched from black ovis last year for sub $150, never spun a one, shot sub archers MOA out to 60, pretty good for "crap pre-fletched, un-spun arrows" if you ask me. Was underspined a bit and did make it tougher to BH tune, so I went to 350s and wanted to try Day Six for the added durability at a similar price.

We dont all need to spend $200+ on a dozen arrows, jig, etc to convince ourselves we can shoot.

Nice shooting! I think buying pre fletched arrows can certainly be just fine, you just might get 4 out of 12 that don’t quite fly right and you can get all 12 to fly perfect if you take all the steps and pay attention to the little details like insert/outsert alignment.

 

[5MilesBack]

Did you not read where I said I got the answer i needed in the first reply to this thread. Not bro science, just good data about why spinning these outserts isn't req'd.

The first reply mentioned his arrows not spinning true with IW collars, but his arrows spin true without them. How do you think he came to those scientific conclusions without SPINNING them??????

 

[Vandy321]

For those of you who have a Pine ridge spinner, so you know what the tolerance is on the slip fit of the wheels? Those things look super well made so I’m sure that the bearings in them all are within .0001” which is the spec needed to qualify a .001” so i would assume they’re built that right and well......buy a spinner if you shoot aluminum or if you want piece of mind; BUT don’t come sh*trying on someone else because they don’t do things your way just for your own confirmation bias. I only spin my 2712s and my FMJs when i shot them and that was on a Firenock spin tester, so you’re all wrong! Lol I’m kidding, I don’t spin a dang thing anymore and the animals sure don’t mind. Take that time you’re spending spinning, go shoot your bow, and get some talent to go with that nice fancy well built plastic spinner you’ve got there.

Yep, the first review on pine ridge website...and I quote "the wheels wobble" the 2nd review..."seems flimsy". The traits of a precision instrument, no doubt.

@5MilesBack i posted that wrong, my bad, the 2nd reply is what i meant to say. Told me all I needed to know.

 

[Billy Goat]

It's funny how crappy the pine ridge spinner is built, yet it does exactly what it needs to do. When an arrow spins true on it, I can put it on my ram line and find out that it still spins true.


An arrow spinner is nothing complex, it doesn't need to be fancy to tell you a lot.

 

[Reburn]

Yep, the first review on pine ridge website...and I quote "the wheels wobble" the 2nd review..."seems flimsy". The traits of a precision instrument, no doubt.

@5MilesBack i posted that wrong, my bad, the 2nd reply is what i meant to say. Told me all I needed to know.

Not crucial, the benefit to the centric system is it doubles up on tolerance between the collar and the center pin. By marrying the two together via the threads on the centric insert you’re keeping the collar in line with the inside diameter of the shaft which is the most tightly controlled part of the shaft. When you take into consideration the length of the sleeve/centerpin/OD Slip fit/ ID slip fit, you mitigate the angular deviation the system can have on the shaft. I just spin the inserts as I’m installing to spread the glue evenly, let them cure, then go kill things


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The second reply is very well written. However in practice......Centric system as day six calls it is a half out. Even if you cut and square your shafts to the Nth degree sometimes half outs will have a wobble to them. Most will be good. Some will have wobble. Alot of broad heads have wobble. I have a 3 pack of swacker that have never been shot becuase they wobbled so bad. So the problem with not spinning is was the shaft wobbling or the insert. Collar systems also sometimes have a wobble in them as well. With half outs its almost more important to spin as you start tolerance stacking and if the shaft is .001 out then the half out is 001 out and the collar is 002 out you end up with a 004 wobble. Then add a broadhead that has another 001 and you end up with a final arrow with a 005 wobble to it. Having a touch of wobble isnt the worst thing ever. If you shooting mechs. You step into big fixed blades and they will show you if your arrows is wobbly. At the end does it matter to you if you paid for 001 shafts to build an 005 arrow? Thats up to you.

If you want a finely engineered and machined arrow spinner get a fire nock or a RAM tester. I have both. The $20 pine ridge works better as an arrow spinner.

 

[Beendare]

Reburn...you nailed it.

I know a bunch of bowhunters -besides myself- that figured out these 4mm shafts with outsert and half out systems are a PITA to get straight and $$$......while the 5mm long HIT inserts and std arrows are easy to get perfect with a jig...and solid if you do it right.

4mm is a problem looking for a solution.

______

 

[dkime]

The second reply is very well written. However in practice......Centric system as day six calls it is a half out. Even if you cut and square your shafts to the Nth degree sometimes half outs will have a wobble to them. Most will be good. Some will have wobble. Alot of broad heads have wobble. I have a 3 pack of swacker that have never been shot becuase they wobbled so bad. So the problem with not spinning is was the shaft wobbling or the insert. Collar systems also sometimes have a wobble in them as well. With half outs its almost more important to spin as you start tolerance stacking and if the shaft is .001 out then the half out is 001 out and the collar is 002 out you end up with a 004 wobble. Then add a broadhead that has another 001 and you end up with a final arrow with a 005 wobble to it. Having a touch of wobble isnt the worst thing ever. If you shooting mechs. You step into big fixed blades and they will show you if your arrows is wobbly. At the end does it matter to you if you paid for 001 shafts to build an 005 arrow? Thats up to you.

If you want a finely engineered and machined arrow spinner get a fire nock or a RAM tester. I have both. The $20 pine ridge works better as an arrow spinner.

These are great points in regard to the potential for runout, but Id like to change some of your verbiage if that's alright, just to clarify why I dont personally spin them. We are talking about two very different things when we talk about using a spinner, Runout which is going to be either an out of round condition or a concentricity issue; as well as the potential for angular deviation through misalignment. Out of round condition of the insert system really doesnt mean a whole lot of anything in this case because the exterior is strictly aesthetic. So we can narrow it down to either concentricity or angular deviation that we are trying to mitigate here. In the example that you gave you're talking about a concentricity issue and your numbers were super kind to the mfg in regard to tolerance. Lets say for this example we use .005 clearance for a standard slip fit in most industries and a good glue gap. (even though Bryan has said publicly on podcasts he tolerances everything at +/-.001) So if we have an ID that is .166 that means our centerpin is gonna be .161 and if we have an OD of .250" (round number) our sleeve is gonna be .255". No way around it here. IF you let your inserts sag to one side while theyre curing, the worst case scenario you can have regards to a total amount of runout is .005" as the tip of your point is going to make little teeny tiny circles just big enough to orbit a human hair or a sheet of legal paper thickness. But lets say that there is a chamfer on the backside of the insert where it meets the centerpin, this is going to keep that point of contact in line with the ID and we are going to run into an angular deviation concern because the back of the centerpin is shoved over to one side of the ID while remaining aligned at the very front. (I hope that makes sense) When you trig all of this out to a head that projects 1" in front of the insert collar (again, 1" for a round number, please scale as you see fit) you get a theoretical point that makes tiny little .006" circles, UNLESS the collar, which is married to the centric system makes contact with the OD of the shaft OR the viscosity of the glue is thick enough to maintain a monolithic structure when the inserts are spun on correctly, thus containing the runout to whatever acceptable amount is found to be appropriate by the archer.

This thread turned into a Sh*t show in a hurry and my post was just to try and help the OP, but this same math doesn't just apply to Day Six, it works with a lot of systems out there. The underlying issue here being that unless you have an optical comparator and a commensurate amount of talent to go with it, we have no idea what an acceptable amount of tolerance is with all of this stuff or what is actually going to make a difference in terms of accuracy, Spin your shafts, dont spin your shafts, but seriously just go shoot your bow and have fun.


Edit, please check my math. I am wrapping up some cardio and did that roughly to pass some time. I could easily have screwed soemthing up.

DK

 

[Reburn]

Reburn...you nailed it.

I know a bunch of bowhunters -besides myself- that figured out these 4mm shafts with outsert and half out systems are a PITA to get straight and $$$......while the 5mm long HIT inserts and std arrows are easy to get perfect with a jig...and solid if you do it right.

4mm is a problem looking for a solution.

______

Thank man I appreciate it. Im still running .166 shafts and next best arrows maybe as well. Unless I can find some 5mm with a sub 9 gpi on a 250 shaft.

 

[Billy Goat]

These are great points in regard to the potential for runout, but Id like to change some of your verbiage if that's alright, just to clarify why I dont personally spin them. We are talking about two very different things when we talk about using a spinner, Runout which is going to be either an out of round condition or a concentricity issue; as well as the potential for angular deviation through misalignment. Out of round condition of the insert system really doesnt mean a whole lot of anything in this case because the exterior is strictly aesthetic. So we can narrow it down to either concentricity or angular deviation that we are trying to mitigate here. In the example that you gave you're talking about a concentricity issue and your numbers were super kind to the mfg in regard to tolerance. Lets say for this example we use .005 clearance for a standard slip fit in most industries and a good glue gap. (even though Bryan has said publicly on podcasts he tolerances everything at +/-.001) So if we have an ID that is .166 that means our centerpin is gonna be .161 and if we have an OD of .250" (round number) our sleeve is gonna be .255". No way around it here. IF you let your inserts sag to one side while theyre curing, the worst case scenario you can have regards to a total amount of runout is .005" as the tip of your point is going to make little teeny tiny circles just big enough to orbit a human hair or a sheet of legal paper thickness. But lets say that there is a chamfer on the backside of the insert where it meets the centerpin, this is going to keep that point of contact in line with the ID and we are going to run into an angular deviation concern because the back of the centerpin is shoved over to one side of the ID while remaining aligned at the very front. (I hope that makes sense) When you trig all of this out to a head that projects 1" in front of the insert collar (again, 1" for a round number, please scale as you see fit) you get a theoretical point that makes tiny little .006" circles, UNLESS the collar, which is married to the centric system makes contact with the OD of the shaft OR the viscosity of the glue is thick enough to maintain a monolithic structure when the inserts are spun on correctly, thus containing the runout to whatever acceptable amount is found to be appropriate by the archer.

This thread turned into a Sh*t show in a hurry and my post was just to try and help the OP, but this same math doesn't just apply to Day Six, it works with a lot of systems out there. The underlying issue here being that unless you have an optical comparator and a commensurate amount of talent to go with it, we have no idea what an acceptable amount of tolerance is with all of this stuff or what is actually going to make a difference in terms of accuracy, Spin your shafts, dont spin your shafts, but seriously just go shoot your bow and have fun.

To dumb this down, your saying it's one thing to have an insert that is glued slightly off center, it's still straight, just not perfectly centered on the center axis of the arrow. A worse case scenario is an insert that the front or rear is centered, while the opposite end is offset one way or another, or it's laying sideways to the axis. The insert that is sideways is going to be way worse because the point length increases the amount it's off because it simply extends the line of the axis of the insert, which lays in some angle across the arrow axis.

I agree with this, it's what I have always thought. I just don't know or have forgotten all those fancy words you used. I just speak Hill Billy man, it was years ago I was in school and have replaced all that knowledge with way more meaningful things.

Also the short of it is by squaring the end of the shaft it increases the likelihood of the insert axis being parallel to the arrow axis.



Now a picture, cause threads are worthless without pictures.....

 

[dkime]

To dumb this down, your saying it's one thing to have an insert that is glued slightly off center, it's still straight, just not perfectly centered on the center axis of the arrow. A worse case scenario is an insert that the front or rear is centered, while the opposite end is offset one way or another, or it's laying sideways to the axis. The insert that is sideways is going to be way worse because the point length increases the amount it's off because it simply extends the line of the axis of the insert, which lays in some angle across the arrow axis.

I agree with this, it's what I have always thought. I just don't know or have forgotten all those fancy words you used. I just speak Hill Billy man, it was years ago I was in school and have replaced all that knowledge with way more meaningful things.

Also the short of it is by squaring the end of the shaft it increases the likelihood of the insert axis being parallel to the arrow axis.



Now a picture, cause threads are worthless without pictures.....

View attachment 255876

Hahaha don’t sell yourself short bud, you’re one of the few members Who’s opinion I value around here. There’s a lot of beers and whiskey in between me learning those words and where were at today


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Zac]

These are great points in regard to the potential for runout, but Id like to change some of your verbiage if that's alright, just to clarify why I dont personally spin them. We are talking about two very different things when we talk about using a spinner, Runout which is going to be either an out of round condition or a concentricity issue; as well as the potential for angular deviation through misalignment. Out of round condition of the insert system really doesnt mean a whole lot of anything in this case because the exterior is strictly aesthetic. So we can narrow it down to either concentricity or angular deviation that we are trying to mitigate here. In the example that you gave you're talking about a concentricity issue and your numbers were super kind to the mfg in regard to tolerance. Lets say for this example we use .005 clearance for a standard slip fit in most industries and a good glue gap. (even though Bryan has said publicly on podcasts he tolerances everything at +/-.001) So if we have an ID that is .166 that means our centerpin is gonna be .161 and if we have an OD of .250" (round number) our sleeve is gonna be .255". No way around it here. IF you let your inserts sag to one side while theyre curing, the worst case scenario you can have regards to a total amount of runout is .005" as the tip of your point is going to make little teeny tiny circles just big enough to orbit a human hair or a sheet of legal paper thickness. But lets say that there is a chamfer on the backside of the insert where it meets the centerpin, this is going to keep that point of contact in line with the ID and we are going to run into an angular deviation concern because the back of the centerpin is shoved over to one side of the ID while remaining aligned at the very front. (I hope that makes sense) When you trig all of this out to a head that projects 1" in front of the insert collar (again, 1" for a round number, please scale as you see fit) you get a theoretical point that makes tiny little .006" circles, UNLESS the collar, which is married to the centric system makes contact with the OD of the shaft OR the viscosity of the glue is thick enough to maintain a monolithic structure when the inserts are spun on correctly, thus containing the runout to whatever acceptable amount is found to be appropriate by the archer.

This thread turned into a Sh*t show in a hurry and my post was just to try and help the OP, but this same math doesn't just apply to Day Six, it works with a lot of systems out there. The underlying issue here being that unless you have an optical comparator and a commensurate amount of talent to go with it, we have no idea what an acceptable amount of tolerance is with all of this stuff or what is actually going to make a difference in terms of accuracy, Spin your shafts, dont spin your shafts, but seriously just go shoot your bow and have fun.


Edit, please check my math. I am wrapping up some cardio and did that roughly to pass some time. I could easily have screwed soemthing up.

DK

Dorge is that you?

 

[Billy Goat]

Hahaha don’t sell yourself short bud, you’re one of the few members Who’s opinion I value around here. There’s a lot of beers and whiskey in between me learning those words and where were at today


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Appreciate it.

It's always nice to have internet buddies. They replaced all my invisible friends.


Maybe someday we can run into each other and share a few bourbons.

 

[BucksNBulls]

The first reply mentioned his arrows not spinning true with IW collars, but his arrows spin true without them. How do you think he came to those scientific conclusions without SPINNING them??????

Haha no kidding. 2+2 doesn't = 4 here does it.

 

[TheViking]

I just read this whole thread and wow...

If you’re building your own arrows, an arrow spinner is a must. You have to spin every arrow no matter what system you’re using, if you want perfect alignment.

What others did not mention is you also need an arrow squaring device. If the ends of your shaft aren’t square, you can get a lot of inconsistencies as well.

If your shafts spun true without the iron will collar, but didn’t with the collar - then your shafts weren’t square. Using the HIT system the point is aligned by the inside of the shaft. The only way it could now be off is if the shaft wasn’t square and the collar pressed against it and misaligning it.

There is not an arrow or arrow system on the market that does not need to be spun. Since you’re apparently so cost conscious, why wouldn’t you have an arrow spinner? Wouldn’t you want to spin every arrow and make they’re straight before the epoxy settles?? If you didn’t, an arrow could be off slightly and that could show up if you shoot a big fixed blade broadhead - it could plane.

 

[roosiebull]

It's funny how crappy the pine ridge spinner is built, yet it does exactly what it needs to do. When an arrow spins true on it, I can put it on my ram line and find out that it still spins true.


An arrow spinner is nothing complex, it doesn't need to be fancy to tell you a lot.

true dat!

weird thread, someone who has all things archery figured out asking advice with no willingness to accept the info given..... doesn't make much sense.

i use a spinner a bunch, and see it as an absolute, it's a cheap simple tool that takes out a lot of wondering.... there is just no reason not to own one, no reason not to use it a lot

 

[Fins_N_Tines]

I am using Day Six for the first time. Couple things to note from building a few arrows out of my dozen. I used hot melt on a couple arrows just to test components and have ability to change weights. Using hot melt is harder than 2 part epoxy as hot melt is thicker and sets quick. With that said, day six components have tight tolerances, but if you do not do everything perfectly you can easily install the outsert / collar not straight. IMO this is the down side to the Day Six components there is two many parts and pieces which can lead to error. Now this seemed to be easier with the standard 2 part epoxy. But yes I spun all arrows I built. I think the Day Six has a little learning curve, but if done correctly will spin straight.

 

[Billy Goat]

It's interesting to read some of this again. I had forgotten about it.

I think one thing that's going on in terms of the thought process with spinning or not is that it really isn't critical with field points. .006 shafts versus .001 shafts isn't a huge difference with a target point on the front. Same as .010 wobble on that point, hell I have shot some bent pro points that are probably 1/16" off. Don't matter that much punching paper or foam. However when you stick blades on that point it changes things, it's like another set of vanes on your arrow.

I never cared a whole lot about straightness til I was shooting fixed blades out to 65+ yards, that's when it really started to show.

 

[TheViking]

It's interesting to read some of this again. I had forgotten about it.

I think one thing that's going on in terms of the thought process with spinning or not is that it really isn't critical with field points. .006 shafts versus .001 shafts isn't a huge difference with a target point on the front. Same as .010 wobble on that point, hell I have shot some bent pro points that are probably 1/16" off. Don't matter that much punching paper or foam. However when you stick blades on that point it changes things, it's like another set of vanes on your arrow.

I never cared a whole lot about straightness til I was shooting fixed blades out to 65+ yards, that's when it really started to show.

And that’s also why you spin and adjust those outserts until they’re perfect. With said spinner...lol