Did preference points ruin the west?

serorem

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I know this question is subjective to which end of the spectrum you’re on. For me, I’ve been collecting points in several western states but in some states, I wish I hadn’t even invested in since I will never catch the needed points to draw some of the hunts I want. Now granted I know there’s a random draw in states but it’s such a tiny portion of the tags and I know you can buy landowner tags as well but for the avg blue collar guy, it’s not feasible to spend $5k+ to hunt. I think New Mexico did it right by never implementing a points system! Just curious on what stance people have the whole pay to play system?
 

5MilesBack

"DADDY"
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Colorado has had a point system for as long as I can remember, and I started big game hunting in 1980. In all that time, the most points I've used for a tag is 5, except for moose and sheep. There's also plenty of OTC to hunt every year, so IMO........no, PP's haven't ruined anything. They are what they are, and you get to "choose" where and when you hunt based on how many you have. It's no different than the real estate market......you choose where you want to live and you either have enough cash (i.e. points) to do that, or you don't. And if you don't, you choose a less pricey area.
 

Ucsdryder

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Colorado has had a point system for as long as I can remember, and I started big game hunting in 1980. In all that time, the most points I've used for a tag is 5, except for moose and sheep. There's also plenty of OTC to hunt every year, so IMO........no, PP's haven't ruined anything. They are what they are, and you get to "choose" where and when you hunt based on how many you have. It's no different than the real estate market......you choose where you want to live and you either have enough cash (i.e. points) to do that, or you don't. And if you don't, you choose a less pricey area.
I think you make a good point that you weren’t trying to make. They’ve been great, for a long time. But not anymore. I’ll put a wager right now that in a few years you won’t be able to draw any of the mid point units. Just like you hear guys say “when I started you could hunt gmu10 with 10 points, that was 20 years ago and I still haven’t drawn my tag.” That will be 49, 61, 76 etc. There are too many people for not enough tags. It’ll be no different than sheep or moose. If a unit has 100 tags and 10,000 people that want to hunt it, that’s 100 years of points to draw.
 

Wrench

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I've never pulled a bull tag in my home state of Washington. I've applied every year since 1994. I have every point possible.

Fuk the point system.

Once I draw they get zero dollars from me for the rest of time.
 

prm

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What’s a better alternative? There are more people wanting licenses than there are licenses. I don’t like the point creep, but CO seems to have an OK system where you can at least go hunt each year, or choose to build points.
 
OP
serorem

serorem

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Colorado has had a point system for as long as I can remember, and I started big game hunting in 1980. In all that time, the most points I've used for a tag is 5, except for moose and sheep. There's also plenty of OTC to hunt every year, so IMO........no, PP's haven't ruined anything. They are what they are, and you get to "choose" where and when you hunt based on how many you have. It's no different than the real estate market......you choose where you want to live and you either have enough cash (i.e. points) to do that, or you don't. And if you don't, you choose a less pricey area.
I get the analogy. I do hunt Montana every year in general units and have been fortunate to kill some really nice bulls over the years. I started buying points with the intent that these would be my future trophy hunts and knew it would take years to draw them but am now in the realization that I’ll have to settle for a far less superior hunt just to use them. I know in New Mexico I may only have a 15-20% chance to draw a tag but that’s far better than a .1% in AZ or Utah. It’s sad to think that our youth may never get to hunt these states unless they are one of the lucky .1%ers.
 
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serorem

serorem

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What’s a better alternative? There are more people wanting licenses than there are licenses. I don’t like the point creep, but CO seems to have an OK system where you can at least go hunt each year, or choose to build points.
Currently there’s no alternative. These states that are in the point systems can/will never go away from it. They can’t. I just think a total random draw is the way to go. Then everyone has the same chance at drawing a tag, both old and young. North Dakota has a random draw for their moose, elk and sheep. I know guys that have drawn tags in their first year and guys that are still waiting 30yrs later to draw. To me this is the best system.
 

5MilesBack

"DADDY"
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I think you make a good point that you weren’t trying to make. They’ve been great, for a long time. But not anymore. I’ll put a wager right now that in a few years you won’t be able to draw any of the mid point units. Just like you hear guys say “when I started you could hunt gmu10 with 10 points, that was 20 years ago and I still haven’t drawn my tag.” That will be 49, 61, 76 etc. There are too many people for not enough tags. It’ll be no different than sheep or moose. If a unit has 100 tags and 10,000 people that want to hunt it, that’s 100 years of points to draw.
I guess it depends on what perspective you have. The CDOW manages the game, and they use hunter numbers and harvest numbers to do that. They have an endless supply of hunters at this point, so they can manage based on that. They aren't in the philanthropy business, so whether one can draw unit 201 or even 76 isn't really a concern. Well, maybe they are in philanthropy business because they've added the "hybrid draw" for those high point units the past few years........but that really shouldn't be their concern. I don't think game management should ever be based on pleasing everyone.

I think it comes down to the entitlement mentality. Do I have an entitlement to hunt elk in 201? I mean sheez, I've been a resident my whole life and have been hunting for the past 40 years........shouldn't I be entitled to that? Sure........if I have enough points.

People always assume that lesser points means a lesser hunt.......not true at all. I have a buddy that drew an archery elk tag in a 1 point unit for the first time recently and shot a 325" bull 6 hours into his hunt. He drew the same unit two years later and shot a massive bull within 1/4 mile of the other one 5.5 hours into that hunt. So he has 11.5 hours of time in a unit he had never hunted or scouted and has two trophy bulls to show for it. Is that the norm? No, but that was recently.......there are still big bulls out there, and great hunting regardless of size.
 
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I like that some states have them and some don’t. I would like them less if every state had Colorados system.
 

Ucsdryder

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I guess it depends on what perspective you have. The CDOW manages the game, and they use hunter numbers and harvest numbers to do that. They have an endless supply of hunters at this point, so they can manage based on that. They aren't in the philanthropy business, so whether one can draw unit 201 or even 76 isn't really a concern. Well, maybe they are in philanthropy business because they've added the "hybrid draw" for those high point units the past few years........but that really shouldn't be their concern. I don't think game management should ever be based on pleasing everyone.

I think it comes down to the entitlement mentality. Do I have an entitlement to hunt elk in 201? I mean sheez, I've been a resident my whole life and have been hunting for the past 40 years........shouldn't I be entitled to that? Sure........if I have enough points.

People always assume that lesser points means a lesser hunt.......not true at all. I have a buddy that drew an archery elk tag in a 1 point unit for the first time recently and shot a 325" bull 6 hours into his hunt. He drew the same unit two years later and shot a massive bull within 1/4 mile of the other one 5.5 hours into that hunt. So he has 11.5 hours of time in a unit he had never hunted or scouted and has two trophy bulls to show for it. Is that the norm? No, but that was recently.......there are still big bulls out there, and great hunting regardless of size.
There has to be some “fairness” in it. If you want to get rid of “fairness” and ONLY do it based on game management, why not get rid of the draw completely and have a bid system. The highest bid gets the tag. For game management it would raise way more money. The north west corner alone would raise millions every year!

I just don’t see an advantage of the PP system as hunter numbers grow. It puts everyone entering the game, especially kids, at a huge disadvantage.
 

Ucsdryder

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CO should let you put your points in your Will.
Then you’d see point creep reach 50-100 in some units! The only way point creep will stop is when a bunch of people in their 60-80s start giving up due to old age/death. Every year you see the “I have 25 points, where should I hunt?” You’d think if you had 2.5 decades to decide you’d have a plan!


the elk talk podcast did a really good analysis of the PP system. Take a listen.
 

EastMT

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I feel sorry for the kids coming into the system. So many ahead of them to ever have a chance at a draw.

I came up with a list of all of the raffles I could find a couple years back, not cheap but odds are way better. That’s where I’ll be putting my money, still low odds but sheep, goat, etc odds are a lot better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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5MilesBack

"DADDY"
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I just don’t see an advantage of the PP system as hunter numbers grow. It puts everyone entering the game, especially kids, at a huge disadvantage.
Right......and getting rid of the point system puts the guys at a disadvantage that were close to drawing. You can't please everyone!

Kids have a great advantage in CO.......youth preference and cheap tags. Not to mention all those OTC tags. (y) Plenty of opportunities, but for some reason people still believe every single person should have the right or entitlement to hunt a specific unit.
 
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Easy way to stop point creep. You can't hold a license without loosing points. No building points while hunting OTC, leftover use points. The fact that you can still hunt while building points is why creep is so bad. Do away with that and you will quickly start to see the numbers come down.


I'm not saying I'm one way or the other on the topic, it's going to be getting harder and harder to get tags, limited resources.
 
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