Do you think point creep may lead to better quality animals?

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In many areas, especially WY lately, point creep is making it quite the investment of money and time to get a chance to hunt. Do you think that as the investment to hunt increases people are more likely to hold out for a bigger buck/bull thus increasing the over all quality of the units?
 

gabenzeke

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I've had the same thought....but I think as even general units increase it will get to a point where people will shoot anything because it will be harder to get any tag and people want to get "their share".

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Sled

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Doubtful. You'll still have people gathering points that don't get much opportunity at any animal much less trophy quality. They'll jump at the first legal animal they can consider a trophy. Trophy is a relative term.

I'm an opportunity hunter but in high odds terrain I'll get a bit more picky. I'm not holding out for an animal to pull a tape on it's rack for the record books.
 
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Point creep increases the cost of a tag, it doesn’t improve the product.
That would be like expecting inflation to make better houses available.
Our only hope is that point creep would cause folks to give up and walk away.
 

Sled

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Our only hope is that point creep would cause folks to give up and walk away.

It will. Some will get tired of hunting, some will forget to apply and some will die before drawing a tag.

Just remember it takes a population to support hunting. If people stop caring about hunting then you get problems like the Pacific Northwest has
 
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MuleyFever
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Point creep increases the cost of a tag, it doesn’t improve the product.
That would be like expecting inflation to make better houses available.
Our only hope is that point creep would cause folks to give up and walk away.
But it can improve the product if the expectation is higher. I hear it all the time about how people waited 20 years for this tag and they want to hold out for a BOAL.

That said there are 2 types of hunters. There are guys that waited for a tag and they feel they need to put it on an animal. There are also guys that waited for a tag and want to get a big one to justify the wait. I guess there just have to be more of the latter.

I also wonder if the guys that feel they need to tag something are also less into it and will be the first to drop out as the investment needed increases.
 
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One thing I learned about limited versus otc was it center around demand. I mean, we all know that, however the demand might have been easy access instead of antlers.
 

sndmn11

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No way. There's a reason why the trophy elk units in Colorado don't have antler point restrictions, and it definitely isn't a coincidence. Allowing those hunters to take a small animal keeps a big one alive for the next season. If there was a "trophy" or nothing restriction or expectation, there'd be fewer trophies.

You could probably throw in a fishing slot limit as an example too.
 

CorbLand

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But it can improve the product if the expectation is higher. I hear it all the time about how people waited 20 years for this tag and they want to hold out for a BOAL.

That said there are 2 types of hunters. There are guys that waited for a tag and they feel they need to put it on an animal. There are also guys that waited for a tag and want to get a big one to justify the wait. I guess there just have to be more of the latter.

I also wonder if the guys that feel they need to tag something are also less into it and will be the first to drop out as the investment needed increases.
The people that are holding out for the big one on 20 year tags are doing so in units that produce those types of animals.

Just because something takes a lot of points doesn’t mean there’s big animals or it’s going to lead to big animals. This a major fallacy of peoples perception of points.

Personally, I am more willing to hold out on tags I can get more often. I haven’t killed a deer with the last 4 tags I have had. I could have shot a load of two points or smaller threes and fours but I can hunt it again next year and don’t need to take something home with me. Change that to getting a tag every couple of years and those smaller fours are going home the last couple of days.

Holding out for bigger animals is something you either have in you or you don’t. I don’t think the time spent getting the tag really plays that big of a role in the concept. I know a kid that drew a tag with 18 points and shot an average bull opening morning. I know a guy that passed 350-370 bulls in one of the premium New Mexico units and went home empty handed. He wanted a big bull and held out for it. You either have it or you don’t.
 
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No, I think guys will be hunting harder and waiting longer and end up killing the 3 year old pretty 4 pts that would be much nicer the next year. In my local, OTC (can get two tags) unit it’s very tough so most guys shoot the first forked horn they see. On the winter range I see a much better age class of animals and find bigger sheds than many of the higher profile units. Part of that is due to the massive areas of escapement we have, partly I think because almost nobody is trophy hunting.
 

Rich M

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What do you see people shooting now? Some guys hold out for monsters, some shoot nice deer, some shoot whatever they see, and some shoot little forks.

My guess is we’ll still have a broad mix of what folks shoot. We all go for diff reasons, that’s why we all shoot diff size bucks.
 

5MilesBack

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But it can improve the product if the expectation is higher. I hear it all the time about how people waited 20 years for this tag and they want to hold out for a BOAL.
Expectations have absolutely nothing to do with bigger trophies. The animals are either there or they aren't........regardless of expectations. If everybody starts shooting only the biggest animals in a unit, then that unit will have less bigger animals. The only way to improve trophy quality in a unit, is to restrict the number of tags that they allocate even more. Will that increase point creep? Yes. But it wouldn't be the point creep that is creating higher quality. The point creep is just a by-product of the demand and the supply of those tags.
 
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MuleyFever
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Expectations have absolutely nothing to do with bigger trophies. The animals are either there or they aren't........regardless of expectations. If everybody starts shooting only the biggest animals in a unit, then that unit will have less bigger animals.
Sure they can. Isn't that how QDM works? If the group hunting raises expectations and passes smaller animals they grow into bigger animals. I guess the difference is it takes years and western tag holders don't have the tag every year so they really don't care about next year.
 
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Not necessarily in the NR Wy pool at this time. But point creep also happens because of tag reductions.
The deer unit i was wanting has cut tags in half the last few years.

And I don't think its because of all the big bucks, or little bucks, well or any bucks actually lol.
 
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MuleyFever
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Not necessarily in the NR Wy pool at this time. But point creep also happens because of tag reductions.
The deer unit i was wanting has cut tags in half the last few years.

And I don't think its because of all the big bucks, or little bucks, well or any bucks actually lol.
Thats true. Tags in my local unit got cut by a lot due to poor deer numbers. It will take 6+ years to draw a general tag.
 

Sled

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Sure they can. Isn't that how QDM works? If the group hunting raises expectations and passes smaller animals they grow into bigger animals. I guess the difference is it takes years and western tag holders don't have the tag every year so they really don't care about next year.

I think that depends on the goals of the hunter. If the hunter doesn't eat the meat then they're either after the experience or the antlers. Those guys will hold out. For the rest of us, the adage of a bird in the hand holds true.
Ill ask you this and try not to offend you. How many years did you. Wait for your late season tag this year? Do you feel you could have held out past the first day and got a bigger animal?
 

5MilesBack

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Sure they can. Isn't that how QDM works? If the group hunting raises expectations and passes smaller animals they grow into bigger animals.
And if everyone shoots smaller animals, then bigger animals are already left in the unit for the next year. That would raise my expectations, and the quality of the animals left in the unit as well.

Every hunter has different goals and expectations. I've hunted a CO unit many times where opportunities at a 6x6 is pretty much a given. But not all 6x6's are created equal. I've passed on 6x6's in that unit. I have a buddy that shoots the first legal bull he gets a shot at when he gets that same tag.....even a spike. I doubt that passing on spikes and even smaller 6x6's is having any type of impact on the overall quality of the unit.....unless everyone in a unit shot 300" bulls in a year, then there wouldn't be a vast quantity of quality in that unit for some time again. According to a warden I know, that's exactly what happened in this unit in 2017. Bulls were raging during first rifle and a gob of really nice bulls were taken out of there. The unit hasn't been the same since. It was better this year as far as more widespread quality, but it took five years to get to that.......but still not what it used to be like in there. And yet it takes almost twice as many points to draw now, as it took just 7-8 years ago.
 

bnsafe

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if im paying the dollars for a non resident tag and only going once or twice, im shooting a representative animal. not a small one, but avg for what the unit holds
 
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MuleyFever
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I think that depends on the goals of the hunter. If the hunter doesn't eat the meat then they're either after the experience or the antlers. Those guys will hold out. For the rest of us, the adage of a bird in the hand holds true.
Ill ask you this and try not to offend you. How many years did you. Wait for your late season tag this year? Do you feel you could have held out past the first day and got a bigger animal?
I waited 6 years and while I did kill the animal on the 1st day of season it was the 7th day I was there. I could have maybe held out for a bigger animal. There are certainly bigger in there but I think I would have had to get pretty lucky.

This kinda goes back to my original thought. I set an expectation and I found an animal that met that. We all have our own expectations. As units take more points will expectations rise? That was my question. I get it that if everyone holds out to the last day for big animals that more will get killed. I guess my perception is that then there would be more young animals growing up.
 
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