Draw Length - Bow shops seem to set compound DL too long?

[540-Virginian]

Couldn't find anything in past threads so consider this the 'annoying noob question of the week!'

I started exploring archery talk forum and reading threads where people shared pics of their form. A guy named Alan with the username 'nuts&bolts' is apparently the Jedi master on that forum, providing a lot of comments with very specific critiques. What I'm finding on almost 99% of the posts, this master Jedi will recommend shortening the draw length.

This makes me wonder, do shops tend to prescribe and set bows draw length too long? Hell is my draw length too long? I haven't gotten a chance to share a pic of form on AT as I'm not subscribed yet.

So, what say ye for my super tuners and assassin bow hunters here on Rokslide? Do you find most peoples draw lengths are too long? Any ideas why the trend?

Thanks!

 

[4ester]

Alan (Nuts and Bolts) is spot on. I’m currently shooting 2” shorter DL then the shop set up, and shooting the best I have in my life. Long Draw causes all kinds of issues, including target panic in some.

Some things to look at... elbow slightly bent on bow arm, string to tip of nose, completely vertical stance (no leaning back), and release hand elbow in line with the arrow.


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[540-Virginian]

Alan (Nuts and Bolts) is spot on. I’m currently shooting 2” shorter DL then the shop set up, and shooting the best I have in my life. Long Draw causes all kinds of issues, including target panic in some.

Some things to look at... elbow slightly bent on bow arm, string to tip of nose, completely vertical stance (no leaning back), and release hand elbow in line with the arrow.


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I've been focusing so much on my grip and front arm, elbow, shoulder, etc., but not so much the release hand. I had no idea the elbow should be higher and parallel with arrow... Archery is turning into golf for me (except I won't quit archery )!

 

[wildwilderness]

Probably. No one wants to be told they have a short draw. That’s not the only thing guys like to exaggerate! Most will add at least an 1” or 2” to their height and also another body part!!


Shops want to keep customers, they want them to feel good and get the speed or they aren’t experienced. Some may be the noob insisting on the longer draw (to stroke the ego) A great archery coach is worth finding.

 

[540-Virginian]

Probably. No one wants to be told they have a short draw. That’s not the only thing guys like to exaggerate! Most will add at least an 1” or 2” to their height and also another body part!!


Shops want to keep customers, they want them to feel good and get the speed or they aren’t experienced. A great archery coach is worth finding.

LOL! Is shorter DL the archery equivalent of a ED? If so, I'll just tell my wife the average draw length is 20"!

 

[540-Virginian]

Shops want to keep customers, they want them to feel good and get the speed or they aren’t experienced. Some may be the noob insisting on the longer draw (to stroke the ego) A great archery coach is worth finding.

So in theory, they are setting longer DL's so the chrono reads higher? I didn't even shoot my bow through a chrono... but the shop I go to didn't hesitate to educate on what IBO speed really meant.

 

[X-file]

Some of the info Alan gives is correct but some is over stated. Shops set people up based on the wingspan divided by 2.5. This gives a general range where someone’s dl should be. But we are all built different. Arm length, hand size and should broadness introduce many variables. I found that what works best for me is to adjust dl 1/4” at a time to find the perfect pin float. According to pro shops my dl is 28” based on the wingspan method. According to Alan my dl should be 26.5”. My ideal pin float and hold are at 27.25”.

There was one person I was assisting that had narrow shoulders and long arms. Wingspan method had them at 29”. Alan’s method had them at 27.5”. Actual dl for ideal float and hold ended up being 26.5”. I have also seen it the other way too where someone measures at 27” but actual comes out being 28.5”


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[Samdemarais]

Couldn't find anything in past threads so consider this the 'annoying noob question of the week!'

I started exploring archery talk forum and reading threads where people shared pics of their form. A guy named Alan with the username 'nuts&bolts' is apparently the Jedi master on that forum, providing a lot of comments with very specific critiques. What I'm finding on almost 99% of the posts, this master Jedi will recommend shortening the draw length.

This makes me wonder, do shops tend to prescribe and set bows draw length too long? Hell is my draw length too long? I haven't gotten a chance to share a pic of form on AT as I'm not subscribed yet.

So, what say ye for my super tuners and assassin bow hunters here on Rokslide? Do you find most peoples draw lengths are too long? Any ideas why the trend?

Thanks!

Ya most guys can’t draw back their 75 lbs mods on their VXR without leaning back so they have too long of a draw length. There are lots of good videos out there from people that know what they are talking about like John Dudley and George Ryals.

 

[Kularrow]

Alan sounds like a Ranch Fairy type character when it comes to Draw Length. Everyone wants to have their own “signature” thing they’re known for and I can’t blame but a lot them die on that hill for one reason or another. I’m relatively new to archery but my observation is people are very attached to draw weight as opposed to draw length. I have a 29 inch draw but I’ve drawn back 28.5 and 29.5 and felt relatively comfortable. My point is your form breaks down much faster at 75lbs than it does at 60lbs as opposed to break down in form from 28.5 to 29.5. If you look at Trad Archers they all start at 35-40lbs to get the form down, it’s nessecary. I see compound guys getting overbowed from the jump including myself. I put new strings on my V3 and was at 73lbs with the limbs maxed out, after 12 shots I don’t even feel like doing it anymore and I had to turn them down a twist.

 

[Brendan]

Alan is not a "Jedi" and has been known to give bad information in the past. He's good on some things, but don't take him as gospel. That's the problem with ArcheryTalk - a ton of misleading information over there.

If I remember correctly, at one point he had people tuning bare shafts by changing their draw length...

From a form perspective, I tend to copy people like Dudley, Levi Morgan, Jesse Broadwater, Stephan Hansen or many of the other pros. I will shorten up a little bit on my hunting bow for late seasons.

Set DL based on your form, and testing, not based on a formula.

 

[dkime]

Alan is not a "Jedi" and has been known to give bad information in the past. He's good on some things, but don't take him as gospel. That's the problem with ArcheryTalk - a ton of misleading information over there.

If I remember correctly, at one point he had people tuning bare shafts by changing their draw length...

From a form perspective, I tend to copy people like Dudley, Levi Morgan, Jesse Broadwater, Stephan Hansen or many of the other pros. I will shorten up a little bit on my hunting bow for late seasons.

Set DL based on your form, and testing, not based on a formula.

Listen to my man here, DL should be tested systematically. The nice thing about bows today is that they can be set up to accomodate most minor flaws. Archery accuracy is a product of bow fit and DL is a huge aspect of that. Your DL should be set based on what youre attempting to accomplish. I bounce back and forth between 28.5-29 based on what I am attempting to accomplish.

 

[Billy Goat]

Guys chase horsepower. They do it in bows just like in everything else. That extra half inch won't hurt anything, but gives 5 more fps. Pretty soon it turns to an inch.


I can shoot 29-29.5.

My scores are better 28.25-28.75. Few other factors come into play like string angle for me.

A bow tech is generally not going to argue with a customer. You give the customer what they want, and the customer is always right.
Every so often someone will listen, mostly they already know what they need and are just showing up somewhere to get it.

 

[Felix40]

I don’t know why anyone really cares how people set up their bows. I’ve been anchoring behind my neck for a long time with a compound. I also anchor far back on my cheek with a traditional bow. A lot of people say both of those are bad things. I kill a bunch of critters and it’s been a long time since I missed a shot. That’s my end goal so I think I will keep doing it.

 

[cured_ham]

Based on pure measurements I am between a 31 and 33. I shoot best with 30 or 30.5 depending on brand and letoff.

 

[540-Virginian]

Alan sounds like a Ranch Fairy type character when it comes to Draw Length. Everyone wants to have their own “signature” thing they’re known for and I can’t blame but a lot them die on that hill for one reason or another. I’m relatively new to archery but my observation is people are very attached to draw weight as opposed to draw length. I have a 29 inch draw but I’ve drawn back 28.5 and 29.5 and felt relatively comfortable. My point is your form breaks down much faster at 75lbs than it does at 60lbs as opposed to break down in form from 28.5 to 29.5. If you look at Trad Archers they all start at 35-40lbs to get the form down, it’s nessecary. I see compound guys getting overbowed from the jump including myself. I put new strings on my V3 and was at 73lbs with the limbs maxed out, after 12 shots I don’t even feel like doing it anymore and I had to turn them down a twist.

Good points!

From ready Alan's comments he doesn't sound like ranch fairy, but maybe b/c he's not annoying yet... But he is very firm in his recommendations. I'm thinking it's more of a language difference. He writes like he speaks English as a second language (not an issues, just something I noticed and try not to interpret him as being a jerk - or maybe he's a bad writer).

I always try take in information from all areas and come to my own conclusion. So far, Alan seems like a coach with a specific view point based on what's worked for his students in the past (he posts pictures and calls them his students so assuming he's a coach). I'll take a piece or two to try, but won't swear by anyone.

The pin float someone else called out makes since and what I'll aim for when adjusting my bow to see what works best.

I'm not attached to draw weight by any means. I'm a lanky guy with a shoulder I've dislocated twice, and an elbow I've broken. Some weird stuff happens when I start drawing 60+# so I don't think I'll ever get to a 70lb bow (but don't mind).

 

[540-Virginian]

I don’t know why anyone really cares how people set up their bows. I’ve been anchoring behind my neck for a long time with a compound. I also anchor far back on my cheek with a traditional bow. A lot of people say both of those are bad things. I kill a bunch of critters and it’s been a long time since I missed a shot. That’s my end goal so I think I will keep doing it.

For me, it's because I'm a) new, and b) curious and trying to learn good habits now vs. correcting bad ones later. I'm also looking to get the most consistent shot and one day have an MER of 60 with a broadhead. This year my goal is 40 (bullseye/kill zone first arrow of the day). Right now I'm at about 30 MER with a broadhead.

 

[540-Virginian]

Alan is not a "Jedi" and has been known to give bad information in the past. He's good on some things, but don't take him as gospel. That's the problem with ArcheryTalk - a ton of misleading information over there.

If I remember correctly, at one point he had people tuning bare shafts by changing their draw length...

From a form perspective, I tend to copy people like Dudley, Levi Morgan, Jesse Broadwater, Stephan Hansen or many of the other pros. I will shorten up a little bit on my hunting bow for late seasons.

Set DL based on your form, and testing, not based on a formula.

Good to know! I like to copy Dudley whenever I can, but find he doesn't always dive deep into things. I get there are so many variables, but I'm finding there are things where I seem to be missing a piece of info, and then I find the missing link through some other medium/person and, "Aha!" fixed that problem.

 

[5MilesBack]

I don’t know why anyone really cares how people set up their bows. I’ve been anchoring behind my neck for a long time with a compound. I also anchor far back on my cheek with a traditional bow. A lot of people say both of those are bad things. I kill a bunch of critters and it’s been a long time since I missed a shot. That’s my end goal so I think I will keep doing it.

I think there's "ideal" form.......and then there's "what works". In basketball I loved the fade away shot, turned and shooting off my left shoulder (LH)......my coach absolutely hated it. But beyond 20 feet I made over 70% with that shot in a season. He still hated it.....because it wasn't "proper" form.

Alan (N&B's) used to be a NASA Engineer, so you have to get past that.......he goes into details no one wants to hear.

 

[540-Virginian]

I think there's "ideal" form.......and then there's "what works". In basketball I loved the fade away shot, turned and shooting off my left shoulder (LH)......my coach absolutely hated it. But beyond 20 feet I made over 70% with that shot in a season. He still hated it.

Comedian Bill Burr on his last Monday morning podcast made a joke about golf and how it's the only sport where they design a product to make up for you sucking; got a right slice, here'ss a club for that. You don't see them changing the basketball or the football because someone can't get shoot 3-pointer or throw spiral. I feel this way about archery... lol.

 

[Rob5589]

Like many recommendations, it is a start to get you pointed in the right direction. Alan is very analytical (if that is the right word) with his thinking and viewpoints. His writing reflects such, same as in person. I took a trip to see him some years ago to help set up my bow after a shop screwed it up. He was overly helpful, extremely gracious, and provided his help for free. I offered him payment but he refused to accept.