E Bikes on Colorado foot trails?

Joined
Mar 26, 2020
Messages
28
Did you read the article in Backcountry Journal? Have you read other responses in here? Have you read my advice to folks about checking with local offices? How long have you worked in travel management? I've been involved in it for over 40 years and have been a manager in the USFS and the BLM. I still have plenty of contacts so I feel pretty qualified offering advice such checking with local offices. I also am an environmental writer so I know the NEPA pretty well, as well as the regulations, case law, etc. I have participated in many, many public meetings regarding travel management. Curious, just are your qualifications? You sure seem to like to criticize everyone who doesn't agree with you. I signed up on the forum to help folks out and one area that I feel fairly qualified in is travel management. Sorry I provided advice to the OP that you didn't like.
Talk about a victim mentality, I actually enjoyed the majority of your posts, and I encourage you to continue. Regardless of your authority on the subject, you made a couple points (lawsuit, mechanical) that could be easily disproven by a middle schooler with a working knowledge of google. Now that you are walking back those mistakes, you posts are more accurate.
 

BuzzH

WKR
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Location
Wyoming
Mountain bikes are not banned in the original Wilderness mandate, although the Sierra Club and Wilderness Society tried hard to get them banned back then. The ban on bikes was tacked on in the 80's when the original signers of the Wilderness Act were no longer around to cry foul. The orwellian association of bikes with mechanized and mechanical is how the Sierra Club and Wilderness Society are covering their tracks to make it seem like banning bikes was always part of the Wilderness Act.

Not true, read the original text of the 1964 act:


PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES
(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing
private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road
within any wilderness area designated by this Act and except as necessary to meet
minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this
Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety
of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor
vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other
form of mechanical transport,
and no structure or installation within any such
area.
 

BCSojourner

Lil-Rokslider
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Messages
201
Location
Kremmling, CO
I posted the link earlier. Districts might be a better word then agencies, see how confusing it is when people use words incorrectly. As for your other comment, I am open minded, if you think they bikes are mechanized, prove it to me and yourself and people reading that they are. Saying that you know some people who consider bikes mechanized isn't much of a rebuttal to dictionaries and thesauruses.
I'm relaying what is in the rules, regulations, policies, handbooks etc. If you don't like the use of the word mechanized maybe you should take it up with the agencies. The term has been used for a long, long time in mandates such as the Code of Federal Regulations that generate manuals, handbooks and and policies, developed by folks who are much more qualified to apply the terms than you or me. Regarding the use of the term mechanized, I would suggest that you take your argument to court if it bothers you so much and you feel that its use is incorrect and has been used incorrectly for decades and see how far you get. I sure don't get the feeling that you are very open-minded. If you were you would actually be asking more questions about travel management planning and the process of route designations. You could be a lot more helpful to ebike advocates by actually learning about the process, getting involved in open public discussions and providing comments during the planning and designation process (i.e.,learn some about public land management); and then advising users once you understand where and why the use is appropriate and authorized. The agency folks that work with user groups, other state and local agencies, etc. have a passion for their management, teh pubic that they serve, and stewardship of public lands. Call them up and talk with them, ask them questions. That is what the OP who started this post did, what I have done since you went off in this thread, and hopefully others will do as well before they just hop on an ebike and assume that the Secretarial Order is being implemented exactly the same everywhere. As the article pointed out we will all just have to wait and see but all users should first check with the agency office that is responsible for managing the lands where they would like to ride.
 

BCSojourner

Lil-Rokslider
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Messages
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Kremmling, CO
What about the unconfined recreation part? I haven't really advocated for bikes in Wilderness, just pointing out that the Wilderness Act was originally enacted with the specific intent of allowing bikes.
"Unconfined recreation" has nothing to do with mode of transport. It basically means that you are not hemmed in by a bunch of roads, other development, etc. It is consistent with the size requirement of 5,000 acres to qualify for wilderness designation. You can probably find case law that will help you with the meaning and intent as written in the Wilderness Act.
 

BCSojourner

Lil-Rokslider
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Messages
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Kremmling, CO
Talk about a victim mentality, I actually enjoyed the majority of your posts, and I encourage you to continue. Regardless of your authority on the subject, you made a couple points (lawsuit, mechanical) that could be easily disproven by a middle schooler with a working knowledge of google. Now that you are walking back those mistakes, you posts are more accurate.
I'm not walking anything back. Policies and regulations are not written from Google or a dictionary. I have shared with you what is in the policies and regulations-it is mandated fact whether you like it or not. I relayed what was in the article and provided a link so that the OP would be informed of the current status of the implementation of the Secretarial Order and encouraged him to check with his local office, which I believe that he did. Agencies have to shift feet all of the time when decisions are issued and they wind up being appealed or protested. Many times they cannot be implemented until a final decision is issued by a Judicial District, or, in the case of an appeal, issued by the Interior Board of Land Appeals.
 
Joined
Mar 26, 2020
Messages
28
Not true, read the original text of the 1964 act:


PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES
(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing
private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road
within any wilderness area designated by this Act and except as necessary to meet
minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this
Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety
of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor
vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other
form of mechanical transport,
and no structure or installation within any such
area.
Thanks, this proves my point that mechanical is referring to motorized. When the Wilderness Act was written it said mechanical transport is banned from Wilderness. The 1966 CFR interpretted that direction to ban devices that are powered by nonliving substances. Bikes weren't banned in Wilderness until 1984 when the Wilderness Act senators were no longer around to cry foul.
Here is the 1966 ruling:
"Mechanical transport, as herein used, shall include any contrivance which travels over ground, snow, or water, on wheels, tracks, skids, or by floatation and is propelled by a nonliving power source contained or carried on or within the device."

36 CFR § 293.6
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
560
Location
Coeur d' Alene, ID
Thanks, this proves my point that mechanical is referring to motorized. When the Wilderness Act was written it said mechanical transport is banned from Wilderness. The 1966 CFR interpretted that direction to ban devices that are powered by nonliving substances. Bikes weren't banned in Wilderness until 1984 when the Wilderness Act senators were no longer around to cry foul.
Here is the 1966 ruling:
"Mechanical transport, as herein used, shall include any contrivance which travels over ground, snow, or water, on wheels, tracks, skids, or by floatation and is propelled by a nonliving power source contained or carried on or within the device."

36 CFR § 293.6


No it doesn't hence why the specifically mention motorized prior to mentioning mechanical. Hmm, wonder why?

PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES
(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing
private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road
within any wilderness area designated by this Act and except as necessary to meet
minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this
Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety
of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor
vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft,
no other
form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such
area.
 
Joined
Mar 26, 2020
Messages
28
No it doesn't hence why the specifically mention motorized prior to mentioning mechanical. Hmm, wonder why?

PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES
(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing
private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road
within any wilderness area designated by this Act and except as necessary to meet
minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this
Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety
of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor
vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft,
no other
form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such
area.
Ah, I see you dabble in revisionist history. The CFR should have clued you in to what they are referring to but that sentence speaks for itself as it is a list of motorized devices,
-MOTOR Vehicles- typically refers to vehicles that can travel 25 miles an hour and be highway legal
-MOTOR boats- since motor boats are a motor vehicle, this would be a redundancy except for the fact that they cannot be highway legal.
-Or other form of mechanical (MOTOR) transport- this is needed to cover the other motor vehicles that are not motor boats or highway legal, for example snowmobiles, chairlifts, trail scooters
If you are still confused perhaps an exchange from an attorney and representative will clear up some of your confusion:

Rep. Compton White (ID) and USDA Attorney Reynolds Florance:
Mr. Florance. We tell them they must come in by the same means as the general public may come across the nationally owned lands.
Mr. White. We establish then we have horses and buggies all over wilderness areas.
Mr. Florance. Horses and buggies are not prohibited.
Mr. White. Just by the terrain and trails that exist.
Mr. Florance. Horses are used in many of the wilderness areas.
Mr. White. I am talking about the mechanical contraption with wheels that goes behind the horse. The buggy. Or the spring wagon. This is considered-and this is not a mechanical device?
Mr. Florance. No; it is not a motorized vehicle
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
560
Location
Coeur d' Alene, ID
Ah, I see you dabble in revisionist history. The CFR should have clued you in to what they are referring to but that sentence speaks for itself as it is a list of motorized devices,
-MOTOR Vehicles- typically refers to vehicles that can travel 25 miles an hour and be highway legal
-MOTOR boats- since motor boats are a motor vehicle, this would be a redundancy except for the fact that they cannot be highway legal.
-Or other form of mechanical (MOTOR) transport- this is needed to cover the other motor vehicles that are not motor boats or highway legal, for example snowmobiles, chairlifts, trail scooters
If you are still confused perhaps an exchange from an attorney and representative will clear up some of your confusion:

Rep. Compton White (ID) and USDA Attorney Reynolds Florance:
Mr. Florance. We tell them they must come in by the same means as the general public may come across the nationally owned lands.
Mr. White. We establish then we have horses and buggies all over wilderness areas.
Mr. Florance. Horses and buggies are not prohibited.
Mr. White. Just by the terrain and trails that exist.
Mr. Florance. Horses are used in many of the wilderness areas.
Mr. White. I am talking about the mechanical contraption with wheels that goes behind the horse. The buggy. Or the spring wagon. This is considered-and this is not a mechanical device?
Mr. Florance. No; it is not a motorized vehicle


Welcome to the forum, best of luck on your upcoming hikes, ski trips or "hunts". If you need any motorized broadheads for an upcoming hunt, I've got some to sell ya!
 
OP
P Y Buck

P Y Buck

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Mar 5, 2018
Messages
120
As a public land lawyer, excellent post. Although, all I can find is a lawsuit with regard to NPS. Has anything been filed with regard to BLM?
I recently found this update regarding Ebikes of BLM land:

Bureau of Land Management, Interior.

ACTION:​

Final rule.

SUMMARY:​

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) is amending its off-road vehicle (ORV) regulations to add a definition for electric bikes (e-bikes) and, where certain criteria are met and an authorized officer expressly determines through a formal decision that e-bikes should be treated the same as non-motorized bicycles, expressly exempt those e-bikes from the definition of ORV. The regulatory change effectuated by this rule has the potential to facilitate increased recreational opportunities for all Americans, especially those with physical limitations, and could encourage additional enjoyment of lands and waters managed by the BLM.

DATES:​

This final rule is effective on December 2, 2020.
 
OP
P Y Buck

P Y Buck

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Mar 5, 2018
Messages
120
Last season I hunted the Baca Refuge near Crestone, CO on a mt bike...e-bikes were prohibited but that didn't stop guys from using em. While they hunted elk, they were hunted by guys with badges. Ebikes face more restriction than mt bikes. There's a lot of public land where they are not permitted. That said, I just got a Bakcou Mule 1000 w/ trailer for bow hunting season on private property and areas where they are permitted (AZ provides quite a bit of freedom for backcountry ebike hunters). I just got mine and am still getting familiar with it. I have the single wheel trailer shown here. The damn thing has a surprising amount of power.

I recently just placed an order for a Bakcou mule 1000. I was researching any recent updates to lane use on public land and came across an update to the Ebike regulations on BLM land.:

Bureau of Land Management, Interior.

ACTION:​

Final rule.

SUMMARY:​

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) is amending its off-road vehicle (ORV) regulations to add a definition for electric bikes (e-bikes) and, where certain criteria are met and an authorized officer expressly determines through a formal decision that e-bikes should be treated the same as non-motorized bicycles, expressly exempt those e-bikes from the definition of ORV. The regulatory change effectuated by this rule has the potential to facilitate increased recreational opportunities for all Americans, especially those with physical limitations, and could encourage additional enjoyment of lands and waters managed by the BLM.

DATES:​

This final rule is effective on December 2, 2020.
 

def90

WKR
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Messages
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Location
Colorado
If e bikes are allowed in the wilderness then I want to be able to ride my dirt bike on the same trails, in the end they are the same thing.

e bikes (and in my mind mountain bikes as well) have no place in the wilderness.
 

Okhotnik

WKR
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Dec 8, 2018
Messages
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Location
N ID
If e bikes are allowed in the wilderness then I want to be able to ride my dirt bike on the same trails, in the end they are the same thing.

e bikes (and in my mind mountain bikes as well) have no place in the wilderness.
You're absolutely right ,there is no different between a bike powered by a battery or gas. The ebike lobby sure is trying to market them differently.
 

bsnedeker

WKR
Joined
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Messages
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Location
MT
If e bikes are allowed in the wilderness then I want to be able to ride my dirt bike on the same trails, in the end they are the same thing.

e bikes (and in my mind mountain bikes as well) have no place in the wilderness.
Is this a serious comment? Bikes are not allowed in wilderness, full stop. Doesn't matter if they have a battery or not. If it has wheels it is prohibited in wilderness. No one is trying to change that as far a I am aware.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
6,389
I recently just placed an order for a Bakcou mule 1000. I was researching any recent updates to lane use on public land and came across an update to the Ebike regulations on BLM land.:

Bureau of Land Management, Interior.

ACTION:​

Final rule.

SUMMARY:​

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) is amending its off-road vehicle (ORV) regulations to add a definition for electric bikes (e-bikes) and, where certain criteria are met and an authorized officer expressly determines through a formal decision that e-bikes should be treated the same as non-motorized bicycles, expressly exempt those e-bikes from the definition of ORV. The regulatory change effectuated by this rule has the potential to facilitate increased recreational opportunities for all Americans, especially those with physical limitations, and could encourage additional enjoyment of lands and waters managed by the BLM.

DATES:​

This final rule is effective on December 2, 2020.

Gotta link to the source?
 
Joined
Jul 21, 2019
Messages
520
Location
Texas
Thanks, this proves my point that mechanical is referring to motorized. When the Wilderness Act was written it said mechanical transport is banned from Wilderness. The 1966 CFR interpretted that direction to ban devices that are powered by nonliving substances. Bikes weren't banned in Wilderness until 1984 when the Wilderness Act senators were no longer around to cry foul.
Here is the 1966 ruling:
"Mechanical transport, as herein used, shall include any contrivance which travels over ground, snow, or water, on wheels, tracks, skids, or by floatation and is propelled by a nonliving power source contained or carried on or within the device."

36 CFR § 293.6
Was the sewing MACHINE not a machine when it was operated with a foot pedal??

Also, using the dictionary:

bicycle | Definition, History, Types, & Facts | Britannica

But this argument is moot currently because what ever was meant in the past, currently anything with a wheel is not legal in a wilderness area.
 
Joined
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Messages
6,389
Well it would seem to be a national ruling allowing ebikes on all federal BLM areas when non-motorized bikes are legal.
 
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