Easton Axis 4mm long range 4 fletch

[OR Archer]

I have seen this too.

With a stiffer vane, you will have less flutter, making the arrow shoot flatter. Is it night and day difference? No, but at 50 and further you will have less drop.

Wayne from the Bow Rack (and Kellen from Inside Out Precision) posted about this not too long ago as well...so if you don't trust us, you can trust him. The Bully vanes from Easton (made by Bohning now) have the same shape, but the material is a lot stiffer.

Less flutter = less drag = flatter trajectory

I worked for Wayne for well over a decade and I’ve known Kellen since he was 12. I only trust one of the two lol.
Of course less drag will equate to more speed and a flatter trajectory. But the claim that is being made is that he has more drag over the first 30 yards than the last 30. An arrows rotation will be achieved within the first 10-15 yards on a well tuned bow so drag would be constant from that point on. There’s plenty of high speed camera film of this.Gravity over that whole span will also be constant thus creating gradual increases in pin gaps. Not a larger increase for the first gap then gradual for the rest. Just doesn’t work that way.

 

[TheViking]

Gravity over that whole span will also be constant thus creating gradual increases in pin gaps. Not a larger increase for the first gap then gradual for the rest. Just doesn’t work that way.

I agree with this.

 

[4fletch]

I worked for Wayne for well over a decade and I’ve known Kellen since he was 12. I only trust one of the two lol.
Of course less drag will equate to more speed and a flatter trajectory. But the claim that is being made is that he has more drag over the first 30 yards than the last 30. An arrows rotation will be achieved within the first 10-15 yards on a well tuned bow so drag would be constant from that point on. There’s plenty of high speed camera film of this.Gravity over that whole span will also be constant thus creating gradual increases in pin gaps. Not a larger increase for the first gap then gradual for the rest. Just doesn’t work that way.

Perhaps this will help you. What captain gravity is failing to read is the difference is comparing the actual pin gaps to the calculated pin gaps. He is arguing with himself.
This is a direct comparison to the calculated pin gaps to what they actually are in reality. The 20-30 gap is a tad larger than the program predicted and as it gets out there in distance the predicted gap sizes are spot on. My guess is i am using a four fletch on a 4mm arrow with a3 degree rh so perhaps while the computer uses an average resistance over the entire distance that is constant, that in reality resistance is not constant and is sorted around 40 yards to where flight is stable.

As far as the viking he was talking about stiff smooth vanes vs softer rough surface vanes and is correct. I confirmed it today at 70 yards.

 

[4fletch]

It was a quick check got rained on and blown around a bit in the field but i shot. Not my best shooting but the real world isnt an instagram post.
20,30,40 i pulled 30 left. Second pick is 50,60,70. Not horrible, not great.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

This is a direct comparison to the calculated pin gaps to what they actually are in reality. The 20-30 gap is a tad larger than the program predicted and as it gets out there in distance the predicted gap sizes are spot on. My guess is i am using a four fletch on a 4mm arrow with a3 degree rh so perhaps while the computer uses an average resistance over the entire distance that is constant, that in reality resistance is not constant and is sorted around 40 yards to where flight is stable.

Like you said, it would appear that the calculator's drag model is off a bit. Drag force decreases as the arrow slows down, which complicates the task of modeling arrow trajectory. I'm not familiar with an UNO calculator, but if it does assume a constant drag force, it makes sense that its pin gap predictions are more accurate at some ranges than at others. This seems like a more plausible explanation than trying to attribute your pin gap discrepancies to rotational acceleration of the arrow. Torque applied by the fletching will be at its maximum the moment the arrow decouples from the string. Inertia will cause some lag between the moment of decoupling and the moment the arrow reaches peak rotational speed, but I expect rotational speed maxes out pretty quickly and has little to no effect on pin gaps downrange.

There's also the human factor to consider when comparing calculated pin gaps to observed pin gaps. Even if it could perfectly model all aspects of the bow and arrow, no calculator can account for the shooter's anchor position changing slightly at different ranges.

 

[4fletch]

Like you said, it would appear that the calculator's drag model is off a bit. Drag force decreases as the arrow slows down, which complicates the task of modeling arrow trajectory. I'm not familiar with an UNO calculator, but if it does assume a constant drag force, it makes sense that its pin gap predictions are more accurate at some ranges than at others. This seems like a more plausible explanation than trying to attribute your pin gap discrepancies to rotational acceleration of the arrow. Torque applied by the fletching will be at its maximum the moment the arrow decouples from the string. Inertia will cause some lag between the moment of decoupling and the moment the arrow reaches peak rotational speed, but I expect rotational speed maxes out pretty quickly and has little to no effect on pin gaps downrange.

There's also the human factor to consider when comparing calculated pin gaps to observed pin gaps. Even if it could perfectly model all aspects of the bow and arrow, no calculator can account for the shooter's anchor position changing slightly at different ranges.

I do not know exactly when it hits "peak revolutions". I know i have seen some video where there is quite a struggle to get rotation going (perhaps a natural left turning shaft being forced right) then revolutions increase for quite a distance. Ill look for the video and edit it in here. I think it was one of the many three vs four fletch videos.
I know in the company three and four fletch Blazer videos they get spinning pretty quickly after they leave the bow and continue spinning even through gel.

This is not known distances so its hard to say but it seems to take a third of the distance or more to reach peak rotation,

 

[Billy Goat]

I know 12 fps results in a difference of a 3/4" impact out of my target bow at 40 yards. That's pretty hard to adjust for even with a micro adjust sight.


If you are actually seeing a difference in gap it's likely coming from you moving your anchor slightly. The drag difference isn't going to be effecting it that much.


I use to have issues with my gaps changing in a weird way around 55 yards. Finally realized it was from me floating my anchor at that range.

 

[TheViking]

I know 12 fps results in a difference of a 3/4" impact out of my target bow at 40 yards. That's pretty hard to adjust for even with a micro adjust sight.

This is great info for people to put into perspective. Generally people freak out about losing a few FPS, but when it’s measured like this, 3/4” at 40 is nothing.

 

[Billy Goat]

This is great info for people to put into perspective. Generally people freak out about losing a few FPS, but when it’s measured like this, 3/4” at 40 is nothing.

It definitely matters at some point, I know that I get used to speed with my 3d setup, then I'll hit something that I thought was way out of my window when I go to my hunting setup.

But I was shooting around 310, then dropping back to 275.

 

[4fletch]

I know 12 fps results in a difference of a 3/4" impact out of my target bow at 40 yards. That's pretty hard to adjust for even with a micro adjust sight.


If you are actually seeing a difference in gap it's likely coming from you moving your anchor slightly. The drag difference isn't going to be effecting it that much.


I use to have issues with my gaps changing in a weird way around 55 yards. Finally realized it was from me floating my anchor at that range.

Perhaps. But while i spent about 30 shots a week doing these three group tests i also shot once a week with a another bow and a couple times a week with the Revolt. I Typically shoot a group at 20, 30, 40 then a second group at 15, 25, 35 practicing pin gap. Ive shot one bow at 3 different weights over the last three months or so. Its possible an anchor change is contributing to the problem, when i "miss" it is usual a left pull at 30, but i shoot enough that i question that. Because when my anchor changes its almost always left right. I use the double anchor of my thumb hooked on the neck tendon and my pointer knuckle under the ear and against the jaw bone. Almost every group you will see me post is every arrow is a 10 yard range difference. (save for tests where they need to be the same range). I shoot and walk, shoot and walk. I have bad days like today, i do not set pins on those days.

 

[Billy Goat]

Perhaps. But while i spent about 30 shots a week doing these three group tests i also shot once a week with a another bow and a couple times a week with the Revolt. I Typically shoot a group at 20, 30, 40 then a second group at 15, 25, 35 practicing pin gap. Ive shot one bow at 3 different weights over the last three months or so. Its possible an anchor change is contributing to the problem, when i "miss" it is usual a left pull at 30, but i shoot enough that i question that. Because when my anchor changes its almost always left right. I use the double anchor of my thumb hooked on the neck tendon and my pointer knuckle under the ear and against the jaw bone. Almost every group you will see me post is every arrow is a 10 yard range difference. (save for tests where they need to be the same range). I shoot and walk, shoot and walk. I have bad days like today, i do not set pins on those days.

What do you center in your peep?

 

[4fletch]

What do you center in your peep?

What do you center in your peep?

The housing. Technically its not really center but its so close to a perfect fit that getting the reference point is a miniscule move.

 

[Billy Goat]

The housing. Technically its not really center but its so close to a perfect fit that getting the reference point is a miniscule move.

That generally works the best, but when you are focused on the top pin it can still cause a little float if close to the top of the housing. Same thing can happen with the bottom pin.

It's hard to keep that housing aligned when you start looking top and bottom of it, but still better than trying to center a pin unless you use a small peep, which is difficult for hunting.


I'm certain the difference you are seeing has to be in your anchor. It doesn't take much to change the perspective.

 

[4fletch]

That generally works the best, but when you are focused on the top pin it can still cause a little float if close to the top of the housing. Same thing can happen with the bottom pin.

It's hard to keep that housing aligned when you start looking top and bottom of it, but still better than trying to center a pin unless you use a small peep, which is difficult for hunting.


I'm certain the difference you are seeing has to be in your anchor. It doesn't take much to change the perspective.

It could be.

 

[Beendare]

Sounds like your DL is too long….

Anyway, assuming your bow is BH tuned, I would attribute all of your issues to form errors.

 

[4fletch]

Sounds like your DL is too long….

Anyway, assuming your bow is BH tuned, I would attribute all of your issues to form errors.

Sounds like you just say random nonsense. For real. Did not read what distances i paper tune at and how earlier in the thread? How would you even begin to make DL assumption? LOL, do not bother, you can not. Nothing changes above the waste when shooting 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 yards. Ideally for the most part. There are hunting and terrain situations... If it was a DL issue it would rear its head at all yardages.
For the record my DL is 29.75 and i shoot a 29.5" bow. The d loop and adjustable stan trigger/wrist strap get me to the perfect position, for me.
In the future try to refrain from just saying things with no frame of reference.

 

[4fletch]

It is hard to get the proper angle. And i def muted the guy who tried to claim the vanes on my arrows were backwards so that should eliminate that issue. The clear pic is intentionally not lined up on the 20. Its to show the gap is larger than predicted at 20-30 while the rest of the pins are on as far as gap. I know it looks like they might be slightly off but it is camera angle. The fuzzy pick is with the 20 on because in my short time here i realized someone is going to not read any of this and claim the 20 pin is not lined up with the 20 mark and i must be wearing the wrong shoes. So its a fuzzy pick to keep them occupied.

 

[Beendare]

Sounds like you just say random nonsense. For real. Did not read what distances i paper tune at and how earlier in the thread? How would you even begin to make DL assumption? LOL, do not bother, you can not. Nothing changes above the waste when shooting 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 yards. Ideally for the most part. There are hunting and terrain situations... If it was a DL issue it would rear its head at all yardages.
For the record my DL is 29.75 and i shoot a 29.5" bow. The d loop and adjustable stan trigger/wrist strap get me to the perfect position, for me.
In the future try to refrain from just saying things with no frame of reference.

se.
.
.

 

[4fletch]

Paper tune is only 1/2 way there.

Anchoring on your neck could indicate your DL is too long….and could explain why you are losing arrows to the side.

Arrows dont accelerate when fletch does its thing.

Admittedly, your posts are hard to follow…so it could be my suggestions are off base.
.
.

Yes, blame somebody else for your comprehension issues then repeat a false claim/ misunderstanding that has been already addressed twice at least and base your "suggestions" off it. SMH
Nowhere have i claimed arrows speed up.
Anchor point is pointer knuckle against the jaw bone under the ear lobe with the thumb hooked on the neck tendon for another reference. Im sure you are picturing Cameron Haynes and having some sort of triggered event, but the tendon i am talking about is on the front of the neck.

You are having trouble comprehending, you are making assumptions based on misunderstandings that are cleared up and yet here you are, plowing forward.

I do not tolerate trolling, ignore comes next. Im just not into playing games.

 

[gelton]

Yes, blame somebody else for your comprehension issues then repeat a false claim/ misunderstanding that has been already addressed twice at least and base your "suggestions" off it. SMH
Nowhere have i claimed arrows speed up.
Anchor point is pointer knuckle against the jaw bone under the ear lobe with the thumb hooked on the neck tendon for another reference. Im sure you are picturing Cameron Haynes and having some sort of triggered event, but the tendon i am talking about is on the front of the neck.

You are having trouble comprehending, you are making assumptions based on misunderstandings that are cleared up and yet here you are, plowing forward.

I do not tolerate trolling, ignore comes next. Im just not into playing games.

Dude, the tone of your posts makes me want to stop using four fletch.

You come here with less than two weeks of contributions (not that I would consider your posts contributing to anything) and you immediately talk down to people who have been contributing to this forum for years. Many of which, I can assure you, would run circles around you when it comes to tuning, shooting, hunting, and general overall knowledge of archery.

You have no idea of the wealth of knowledge that some of these members have and how many others they have helped along the way. Show some respect. Oh, and no one cares if you mute them.