ElkNut 7 - Food For Thought!

[ElkNut1]

Many here love talking elk & what makes them tick! This list can easily be comprised of many more thoughts but these thoughts hit home hard! I play on these so called weaknesses on elk every year, so far they have not let me down!

What do you think of these thoughts?



1) Elk are curious.
2) Elk are social and herd animals.
3) Bulls would rather you go to them.
4) All bulls have the instinct to breed come Sept.
5) Herd Bulls will try to keep every cow.
6) Bulls will try to gain every cow but not at the risk of loosing one of their own.
7) Herd bulls can be challenged for dominance, but best done when within inside their comfort zone.

ElkNut/Paul

 

[Raghornklr]

4) elk are different and have different personalities. I’d hate to say all
5)I agree that herd bulls try to keep every “ hot” cow. I’ve seen them walk away when none of the girls were in the mood .
6) some bulls are dumb and greedy, those ones don’t live long

Aside from that agree with the rest , good info.

 

[Beendare]

Many here love talking elk & what makes them tick! This list can easily be comprised of may more thoughts but these thoughts hit home hard! I play on these so called weaknesses on elk every year, so far they have not let me down!

What do you think of these thoughts?

l

Good stuff Paul.

OK, I'll play....though right up front I can say that in my experience this elk behavior varies drastically and is dependent on how much hunter pressure they have gotten- IME, the numero uno factor.
The dumbest elk I've found are the ones that have seen the least hunter pressure.

1) Elk are curious. Yes, but once they have been called to a few times...a lot of them err on the side of safety. I have called bulls that were curious, cows too but the cows were much more wary. Calling cows sometimes works... if those cows are getting pestered they will move towards another herd...taking the bull with them.

2) Elk are social and herd animals. Of course. I did shoot one 9 yr old bull- huge body, built like a Belgian stallion- in Utah that wasn't herded up- he was solo during peak rut and he just went in and took a hot cow when he wanted- his downfall. To this day the biggest bodied elk I've ever seen.

3) Bulls would rather you go to them. For the most part. Pre rut and rutting hard they will range out when they probably shouldn't

4) All bulls have the instinct to breed come Sept. I've seen some young ones that sure acted like they didn't care- when all the other bulls did. I saw a pair of bulls in Co that were horsing around with each other when there were multiple bulls after a couple of hot cows- weird.

5) Herd Bulls will try to keep every cow. mostly true. In some high bull to cow ratio areas its just not possible. I hunted U9 in AZ and there were herds of 30 elk....with a 360" bull and as many as 5 other 6 point bulls just milling around in the herd. I haven't seen that much in any other location

6) Bulls will try to gain every cow but not at the risk of loosing one of their own. I would say for just about every bull, they really don't like to leave their herd. A big dominant bull is actually more likely to leave IME. A bull that just got his tail whipped will try to gather those cows and head out. You just don't know what that bulls state of mind is. I've had them talk right back like they are bad asses...while they are gathering their cows. Sometimes its luck of the draw. Some of those big bulls are smart and don't even take the chance of a confrontation.
Now speaking to this and #1, I have had a bull that was bedded with his cows come sneak in a try to find me [subtle calling]

7) Herd bulls can be challenged for dominance, but best done when within inside their comfort zone. For sure. If they have an out, they will usually take it. If you can mimic another local bull is best- some of those big bulls are wary of newcomers. You can usually tell when they will walk over towards you and bugle at you....then walk away and bugle...but then when you challenge again...they come towards you and bugle again- a good sign.


I think every scenario is different...and I've heard you say the same. Understanding an elks behavior, vocalizations and body language helps....but even then it doesn't always work.


..

 

[Scrappy]

Thanks for all this info guys.I'm still a newb so all I can add is you cant hunt elk until you find them.

 

[elkguide]

Good stuff. The examples that you started with are ones that I would generally agree with. One other tactic that I have found to work "most of the time" is once you are working a good bull, by imitating him and repeating every vocalization he makes, it tends to really tick him off and will tend to bring him in to face his challenger.

That being said, you need to remember that "there are always exceptions to the rule" and elk are very much that way. Yes, a newbie hunter certainly can get lucky and kill a monster bull and wonder why everyone talks about how hard elk hunting is and then they may eat tag soup for the next 10 years. In the field experience is the only thing that will make elk hunting easier but it is still hard! Isn't that why we love it so much?!?! I can give many examples of what happened to me while guiding/hunting elk and they all happened but still there were no two that happened exactly the same.

My biggest question still is...…..

"IS IT SEPTEMBER YET???????"

 

[RedMule]

great write-up

 

[Fridaythe13th]

Good

My biggest question still is...…..

"IS IT SEPTEMBER YET???????"

 

[Fridaythe13th]

And after looking at all those great camp setups I'm ready.

 

[mfllood3800]

Good stuff Paul,

I have seen all of those scenarios play out, and some in slightly different manners, depending on other external factors. In Utah archery bull season is way before the rut, so the elk react to things slightly different.

 

[ElkNut1]

Raghornklr, Thanks for your comments!


4) elk are different and have different personalities. I’d hate to say all
I agree not All elk will have the need to breed at the exact same time. But, you can bet all bulls have the Instinct to breed once they smell or taste the airborne chemical known as the 'pheromone' that a hot cow will emit through sweating or urinating. The highlight of breeding will take place in Sept. Oct. So yes this can effect all bulls sooner or later & most bulls multiple times!

5)I agree that herd bulls try to keep every “ hot” cow. I’ve seen them walk away when none of the girls were in the mood .
Not in the mood represents no hot cow present! Bulls will have little to do with non hot cows or cows that have already been bred. Bulls can still employ a defensive attitude towards subordinates but nothing like when there's a hot cow present in the mix.

6) some bulls are dumb and greedy, those ones don’t live long
I'm OK with those too especially on our OTC public land hunts! (grin) Thanks!

ElkNut/Paul

 

[ElkNut1]

Bruce, yes my friend, the 7 thoughts I shared can be scrutinized with 'What If's' -- Just about anything in life will lean towards this regardless of the subject. The 7 thoughts are solid info & do pertain to elk & elk hunting. Much of hunting elk is done through going with ones gut, this is best done by having countless repeated encounters over a period of many years, this way our guesses are now educated guesses through personal experience & study. Here's a few thoughts along the lines of your comments, thanks!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



OK, I'll play....though right up front I can say that in my experience this elk behavior varies drastically and is dependent on how much hunter pressure they have gotten- IME, the numero uno factor.
The dumbest elk I've found are the ones that have seen the least hunter pressure.
Because hunting pressure or lack of it is a consideration where we choose to hunt we then need to consider tactics that would apply best for that environment. We also should consider the phase of the rut we are hunting & tailor our hunting/calling accordingly.

1) Elk are curious. Yes, but once they have been called to a few times...a lot of them err on the side of safety. I have called bulls that were curious, cows too but the cows were much more wary. Calling cows sometimes works... if those cows are getting pestered they will move towards another herd...taking the bull with them.
I agree cows & bulls alike can become cautious with repeated pressure on them, this does not take away the fact that elk by nature are all of a sudden not a curious animal. This means we as hunters need to be aware of the type of elk we are hunting and also be cautious, we cannot hunt them like unpressured elk. For myself hunting pressured elk calls for creativity on my part!

2) Elk are social and herd animals. Of course. I did shoot one 9 yr old bull- huge body, built like a Belgian stallion- in Utah that wasn't herded up- he was solo during peak rut and he just went in and took a hot cow when he wanted- his downfall. To this day the biggest bodied elk I've ever seen.
Those of us that have hunted for more years than we can remember have come across bulls just like this, I call them 'Bully Bulls' They have their way with a cow in heat & then can isolate themselves once again. It should be noted that this is extremely rare. I've elk hunted over 40 years & can count on one hand the times I've come across such a bull. Bulls like this can be social, it's when we've come across them they weren't but it wouldn't be fair to say they are like that 365 days a year, it would be pure speculation. Our eyes show us for the most part that elk are a herd animal & socialize regularly!

3) Bulls would rather you go to them. For the most part. Pre rut and rutting hard they will range out when they probably shouldn't
The emotion & defensive mindset of a bull for whatever the reason for the day we've found him & has he been hunted yet that year can play a huge part in how far a bull may come to calling. This last season I called a herd bull from his cows 350 yards down a mountain & 250 yards up the otherside straight to me. Now this isn't the norm but it did take place, generally speaking I have to take it to the bull for best results, this is from calling in 100's of bulls over the years of all kinds on OTC elk hunts!

4) All bulls have the instinct to breed come Sept. I've seen some young ones that sure acted like they didn't care- when all the other bulls did. I saw a pair of bulls in Co that were horsing around with each other when there were multiple bulls after a couple of hot cows- weird.
I see similar examples of this same activity every year, bulls can spar for a variety of reasons. Just because we see this sparring while other bulls are in heated competition doesn't mean these subordinate bulls do not have the same urges as the more mature bulls. It's hard to say what has taken place before hunters like us have showed upon the scene? These bulls could have already been forcibly removed like a couple of teenagers & showing their frustration. Tough to say but I'm pretty sure there aren't any gay bulls out there! You can bet your house that All bulls have it in them to want to breed when it's time, problem is many are not chosen by the cows!


5) Herd Bulls will try to keep every cow. mostly true. In some high bull to cow ratio areas its just not possible. I hunted U9 in AZ and there were herds of 30 elk....with a 360" bull and as many as 5 other 6 point bulls just milling around in the herd. I haven't seen that much in any other location
I hear ya, in those larger herds of 20 plus cows it's tough to maintain control over groups as that, point is the herd bull would rather they all stay on board, because some may jump ship does not make him happy or even aware of it! It's up to the lead cow/cows to maintain the structure & order at that time. These cow groups have been together for many months prior to the rut, they know what group they are a part of.

6) Bulls will try to gain every cow but not at the risk of loosing one of their own. I would say for just about every bull, they really don't like to leave their herd. A big dominant bull is actually more likely to leave IME. A bull that just got his tail whipped will try to gather those cows and head out. You just don't know what that bulls state of mind is. I've had them talk right back like they are bad asses...while they are gathering their cows. Sometimes its luck of the draw. Some of those big bulls are smart and don't even take the chance of a confrontation.
Now speaking to this and #1, I have had a bull that was bedded with his cows come sneak in a try to find me [subtle calling]
This implies a hunter giving his best effort to draw a herd bull away with cow calling exclusively. In most cases (depending on distance of caller) the herd bull will give it his best effort through calling to draw this new recruit to the group instead of leaving his cows to hook up a single. -- Reading & evaluating a bulls present mindset is a hunters job. This is done by reading a bulls demeanor. A herd bull with no hot cows will represent a far less defensive attitude than a herd bull with at least one hot cow present. This is where understanding Elk Behavior & Sounds used is a huge asset to the educated hunter. -- Most hunters fail in this regard because they do not know how to Read A Situation through an elks emotion. -- The easiest wat to compare how they feel through sound is to think of how us humans react to a situation. We can talk socially, if annoyed we raise our voice, if annoyance continues we may yell, we can take it a step further & start screaming when totally pissed! Elk are no different, read their emotion & act upon what you're hearing!

7) Herd bulls can be challenged for dominance, but best done when within inside their comfort zone. For sure. If they have an out, they will usually take it. If you can mimic another local bull is best- some of those big bulls are wary of newcomers. You can usually tell when they will walk over towards you and bugle at you....then walk away and bugle...but then when you challenge again...they come towards you and bugle again- a good sign.
Most Herd Bulls with a hot cow or in a defensive mindset will not run when called to in the right area, that area is their destination, if in transition they are likely to continue moving off towards their destination appearing to the hunter that they're running from them. Unless you raise suspicion to them they will defend when need be. If the bull is not defensive then a hunter will reap better rewards by playing on his curiosity. Our calling/raking must be tailored to the bulls mindset we're dealing with. Treating all bulls with the same calling style or tactic will lead to many lost bulls as you try to find the rare one that will cooperate & play along!


I think every scenario is different...and I've heard you say the same. Understanding an elks behavior, vocalizations and body language helps....but even then it doesn't always work.
Agreed, nothing always works! Where would the fun be if it did! But don't think you cannot call in the majority of the bulls, you can, we just need to treat them as individuals, all bulls are not created equal & react exactly the same no matter the situation.


Bruce, thanks! I appreciate your input & felt I should elaborate a bit as well!

ElkNut/Paul

 

[AGPank]

I really appreciate all of Paul’s help and willingness to share with others. I have the playbook and the app. They are useful tools that offer a wealth of information.

I grew up rifle hunting and was pretty successful. I moved from Colorado to Florida and decided to learn archery and travel back to Colorado for elk (almost every year the last 6-7 years).

I have learned how little I knew about elk. I never paid attention to the different sounds elk made, but I’m learning now and seeing success. Last year I heard a bull chuckle. Never treated this different, but this time I followed the instructions in the app (best I could).

I closed the distance, setup the best the terrain would allow and got the bull with bow range, 35 yards, but in brush so thick no shot was available. A little more bad luck was a cow dropped a little lower, saw something she didn’t like, barked and cleared out every elk in that drainage. The result wasn’t quite what I wanted, but I’m convinced I had an encounter I wouldn’t have had without Paul’s help.

I wished I’d been learning this at 11 instead of 40.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ElkNut1]

AGPank, thanks for your feedback, that's awesome! Just because we call bulls in doesn't mean all will be taken. I can recall 6 different bulls my Son & I called in last year & only one hit the ground. Biggest issue lies in how the shooter setsup & if he can handle a close encounter, most newer guys freeze up, it's part of the fun for sure! (grin) Thanks bud!



Elkguide, thank you! Lots of good points there!

I'll share one thing I strive for when working a bull & it has payed off hugely over the years! This applies to any bull that you can get bugling! Some are slow starters & some will hit you bugle for bugle. Point is; is to put them on the defense! This means do not let them call the shots as the encounter escalates. Most hunters allow the bull to run the show, they only call if the bull calls, the ones that fall into that trap lose a high percentage of bulls. Once I get a bull to bugle or I hear him bugle on his own I will use whatever calling that appeals to that particular bull be it cow calls & bugles or bugles only. I then maneuver my calling until he is answering me not me responding to him. Once I get the tide to turn he's in trouble. -- So, get him on the defense & you'll find way more bulls hit the dirt as opposed to letting the bull run the show! I do this with every bull these days!

ElkNut/Paul

 

[Jsmokerbuilds]

Great info! Thanks for sharing!

 

[trophyhill]

Good stuff. The more I hunt, the more I am understanding and "able" to "read the situation". 10 years in and it's becoming more natural and easy to "read the encounter". The proof is in the number of call ins these last 3 or 4 years. To really guage that is the amount I've called in, in heavily pressured OTC units.

The first 5 years, each encounter was kinda like an experiment and learning what works, or not. Resulted in a ton of hang ups, but also some elk in my freezer. Getting that crucial experience (encounters) and applying different tactics is so vital. Great stuff Paul! Great stuff Bruce!

 

[trophyhill]

True statement elkguide!

 

[Beendare]

All right, here is the question everyone that hunts heavily hunted public ground wants to know;

How do you determine the best strategy?
[I know your playbook covers different scenarios]

But lets say a common one like this; You hear a herd bull and a couple other bulls sounding off 1/2 mile away down in a canyon. The bulls are just bugling back and forth....not necessarily super aggressive but more like letting each other know where they are and sounding off for their cows [I think its a spacing thing, but there could be many reasons]

Now what strategy do you use? [lets say right at daylight, cool overcast day Sept 10th]

not just for Paul- please chime in. I think we all know there are many strategies that could work here. No hurry either----we have 5 months. /grin

...

 

[Beendare]

( some long boring commercial breaks in this NCAA tourney)

Many possibilities...but I think most of us agree on a few things;

Its a rookie move to bugle that far away....since they are already telling you where they are.

Its usually a good strategy to move very quick for the first 2/3rds to 3/4 of the distance

So now we are between 150-300yds away. It sounds like a herd bull with cows....and either another small herd 100 yds away or satellites chiming in...and they are still in the same spot.

your next move?


...

 

[elkguide]

Option 1 I want to get the herd bull's attention and make him think that I am too close for comfort and I'm there to steal his cows. In this scenario, I'm going to aggressively bugle, rake a tree and move around at that distance and with cover, slowly get a little closer.

Option 2 would be that once I got to within 100 yards I would begin some cow talk and make the bull think that I'm an "interested" cow with her friends. Once I can get the bull to respond to the cow calls I will frequently throw in a whiny spike bugle to make him think that this lonely group of cows are protected by a little guy and will be an easy take over.

 

[SoDaky]

I'd like to have some idea of the number of cows and/or satellites around.(eyes n ears)A big herd may change my moves but generally I'm moving in.Likely with bugles,if not getting responses then cow calls,and if he is raking likely silently,but almost always,terrain/cover permitting,I'm moving in.And in.Did I say 'in' yet!!!!
He who hesitates loses-especially nowadays with more hunters than elk.
Sat on my ass and let the world pass by too many times.