For or against point restriction - AZ OTC (or non-AZ too)

[AZ_J]

Hello,

Just generating some thought on this. I see way too many forkies and spikes killed every year. Granted congrats to them if its their first deer or first archery kill, but shooting those deer I don't see any fun in as they are really dumb in my mind and I can usually get really close to them during the rut with almost no issue. Sometimes just roll up on them with a SxS and step out and they just stand there.

I really wish most places would implement a point restriction. I see way too many people complaining how they never see any big deer out, but then shoot a forky.

Let me know your thoughts! Especially if I'm being too critical.

I personally have yet to shoot any animal with my bow, been on a few 4x4's, but never sealed the deal once I try and squeeze the last 5 yards closer to 60.

 

[mavinwa2]

Personally I'd like to see 3x3 minimum for muley bucks for AZ.

WA State has 3 pt minimum on ONE side. However 2 pt muley bucks are still illegally shot....and left.

 

[Haulinbass02]

Having just come from Nebraska, all I saw were forkys. They have a 6” restriction but a forky is usually over 6” tall. It is Oct so the big ones could have all been in hiding too….
But coming from Texas I see benefit in having a size restriction. I don’t like it but there is good benefit in it. The age class of deer harvested has gone from 1-2 years old to 3-5 years old. But antler restrictions are also a VERY sensitive subject.
I do understand that hunting public land deer you tend to shoot what you can get. Every deer is hard worked for, but I also would like to have a chance at a bigger deer. If they aren’t ever getting to that age…..


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[AZ_Hunter_2000]

One man’s trophy is another man’s trash. No point in being judgmental against another hunter. You may be chasing bone and he may be chasing meat. You do you; he does him.

But since this is Rokslide. Impose minimum “book” score restrictions since anything less than that means you’re not a serious hunter in the eyes of many Uber elite hunters who love to impose their personal beliefs onto others.

If it’s good enough for deer then impose it for all other game species; both large and small.

 

[Stalker69]

Yes I think point restrictions are good.

 

[IrkedCitizen]

I was told by a game warden in Colorado that if more people would shoot small bucks he would be able to cut back how many tags get issued in the units thus relieving pressure.

 

[Northpark]

Point restrictions suck. But they might make for a healthy herd overall. There was a study on elk on the starky experimental forest that found when you have a larger % of older age class elk (5-6 yr old) they are more efficient at breeding. This resulted in a faster rut. This meant cows dropped calves all at once. since a predator can only be in one place at a time when all the calves dropped at once they had less time to locate calves before they were mobile. This lead to lower predation and a bigger healthier herd.

 

[Trial153]

Anything that keeps OTC opportunities alive is okay with me..
three to side seems like a good start

 

[Pro953]

I believe if you hunt around, most of the research around point restrictions have shown it to be a unsuccessful management tool for deer. Cannot speak to elk. Generally no increase in “trophy” quality and a higher instance of wanton waste/abandoned deer. It’s good in concept but the outcome is not what you would expect.


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[Trial153]

AR restrictions in NY a have made a world of difference in our age structure of bucks in units they been implemented in. Are there better ways to assess via age/spread/body composition…absolutely. However we have to work off the lowest common denominator and unfortunately that bar is pretty low considering what seen from the average deer hunter, so we have to hope that most can count to three or four

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

Been saying a 3 point restriction in CO since I was 12, so many little bucks killed every year and so many complaints of not finding bigger more mature deer.


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[idelkslayer]

I don't have the links handy but studies in Washington and wyoming have shown that point restrictions are not effective in mule deer herds. Wyoming found short term benefit in specific conditions but the benefit didn't last beyond 5 years.

You have to consider that APR's ultimately force all hunting pressure onto the older bucks. Historically and today, forkies have made up at least 50% of total harvest. If all that pressure shifts to older bucks it focuses harvest on the very thing you are trying to preserve.

 

[Northpark]

I don't have the links handy but studies in Washington and wyoming have shown that point restrictions are not effective in mule deer herds. Wyoming found short term benefit in specific conditions but the benefit didn't last beyond 5 years.

You have to consider that APR's ultimately force all hunting pressure onto the older bucks. Historically and today, forkies have made up at least 50% of total harvest. If all that pressure shifts to older bucks it focuses harvest on the very thing you are trying to preserve.

Interesting point. In Michigan where I’m from originally there used to be no point restrictions. Biggest buck I ever killed or saw for that matter was a 2.5 year old 7 point (total count). About 5-6 years ago they implemented 3 points on one side. For about 2 years not many bucks were killed then suddenly everyone is killing the biggest buck of their lives consistently every year.

Whitetail vs mule deer though so could be an apples to oranges comparison.

 

[Stalker69]

We had point restrictions here for several years also, we seen the quality of bucks go up substantially, but we killed fewer bucks. Which is ok with us, but so many complained, and not sure if that’s why they canceled it or not. Now back to seeing much smaller bucks being killed again. And no where here the decent to bigger size bucks we had for a while.

 

[Trial153]

Agree the Dynamics between the two types of deer Are likely very different.


Surprised F&G agencies don’t think more outside the box.
How about any buck tags on a quota and, three point or better tags otc

 

[pk_]

APR don’t really help put more mature deer on the landscape. At least not state mandated ones. They are meant to get the majority of the yearlings into their 2nd season. If anything, having hunted many, many places, for many years with and without APRs, I feel they do nothing more than apply more pressure to the genetically superior young deer and the mature bucks. I would rather hunt places that are ‘brown it’s down’ but have terrain that can grow old deer. Let everyone else kill the first little buck they see, and leave the big ones alone.

If you like seeing more 2 and 3 year old bucks on the landscape and in the harvest statistics, then yes, APRs are fantastic. The only way to get more truly mature bucks is to limit the amount of hunters, the amount of bucks killed or truly have a minimum age requirement of 4.5(which is just another way of limiting the buck harvest).

Be careful what you wish for

 

[idelkslayer]

I quoted this from a post I made in a previous discussion here on rokslide.

This document is a very informative read regarding Antler Point Restrictions:
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Habitat/Mule Deer Initiative/MULEDEER_ANTLERPOINTREGS_REVIE0006790.pdf

The readers digest version is that Antler-point-restrictions can have a short term benefit to increase buck to doe ratios but do not result in long term benefits or higher numbers of mature bucks. Wyoming decided that APR's should not be in place for more that 2-3 years or the number of mature bucks actually declines because that is the portion of the population that gets killed the most.

 

[mavinwa2]

I don't have the links handy but studies in Washington and wyoming have shown that point restrictions are not effective in mule deer herds. Wyoming found short term benefit in specific conditions but the benefit didn't last beyond 5 years.

I can speak to WA State via experience.
The 3 point muley restriction does work in seeing more bucks of 3+ years age. Observed more 2x3, 3x3 and the 4x4 mainframes in off season than in the 1980's b4 APR in place. The mule deer herd numbers have declined mostly due to several harsh winters (1996, 2006-2016-17) and subsequent winter kills. Major fires 2014-2020 have also destroyed much of the winter range habitat (sage) too, contributing to higher spring mortality.
However special permit youth tags can allow a any buck harvest. Special late season Buck permits allow any buck too, although many with these tags wait for a mature buck. In WA State, OTC is just referred to as General Season.

And then add predation of wolves, cougars. Eliminating hound hunting, baiting for cougars, bears by the Anti's has these predator populations at all time highs.

 

[Haulinbass02]

I don’t think there is truly any “magic” fix for the issues. I think the problems are more widespread for mulies as it is. The overall herd health in a lot of places isn’t the best and so much is working against them.
Given the amount of does I saw, I think that some places could stand to thin the herd just a little. Sounds contrary to popular belief but the landscape can only support so many deer.
In places where whitetail and mule deer coexist I believe that there needs to be heavy hunting pressure on the whitetails because they are very aggressive and tend to run the mulies out.
I love that there are still OTC tags available in places but some of those places could use a quota or smaller quota, at least for a while. APRs could be instituted for a while then reassessed. Just spitballing here and I know there are people that are paid to do this but I feel that mulies don’t get the same time and attention that other species do.


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[Blackdog317]

Seems like it would help improve the age and maturity of the average buck that is taken... And the overall health of the herd in areas that are trying to increase numbers. There are several counties back home that have done this with good results.

Granted, that is just anecdotal observation and general opinion from people who hunt those areas. Nothing scientific to back it up.

Sounds like there is data to suggest that restrictions don't help. I'm kinda surprised by that.