G5 Strykers and lack off blood trails

Gumbo

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There is way too much variation in how much penetration you get and shot placement/angle to predict how much blood there will be to follow using a particular head. Of course big cuts will sever more tissue, but that isn't the whole story at all. I've had great blood trails with small fixed-blades and large expandables. But I've also had the opposite. In short, I believe the amount of blood that leaves the cavity isn't dependent on the head as much as how and where the shot enters and/or exits. And I'm not talking good/bad shots, simply angles and the tissues that were shot through.

All in all I'd say I have sub-par blood trails 40% of the time, good 40% of the time, none 10% and grisly Manson-like scenes 10%. My advice is that broadhead selection should be a balance between one that will penetrate as far as possible on a reasonable shot (taking into account species and equipment) and accuracy/forgiveness in the field. Considering the amount of blood trail a broadhead might produce doesn't even factor into my decision.
 

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"DADDY"
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Considering the amount of blood trail a broadhead might produce doesn't even factor into my decision.

If you had to spend hours on your hands and knees looking for tiny drops of blood in the thick timber just trying to find the trail, you might factor that in a bit more. Going from sparingly dropped specs to this has been game changing for me. But drawing 75lbs at 32 1/2" draw, I don't have a problem with penetration......even with mechanicals.
Blood.JPG
 
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They'll get every bit as sharp, and they'll retain it past the hide on the entry side. 420 SS (which every replaceable blade ever is made of) simply doesn't have the hardness or the carbide content to retain a razor edge beyond the hide or ribs on the entry side. Additionally, harder steels are actually capable of taking a much finer edge, simply because they are hard enough to support it. Really fine edges on 420 roll/fold or wear away under hard cutting force (like a broadhead punching through hide and ribs). A head that is razor sharp all the way through is going to help a lot with bleeding out the off side (supposing location is equal).
What Beendare said above is pretty much the whole rest of the story on blood trails.


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They will get sharp, but impossible to get the same. The included angle is not as steep as a blade with an edge independently made relative to its placement on the ferrule. A fixed three blade broadhead with blades offset at 120 deg from one another and sharpened on a flatstone will have what kind of angle to form the cutting edge? Hint: this is not a trick question.

They retain that edge because the angle is "more blunt" than a scalpel blade and won't roll over as easy. They appear to be more sharp. A SS fixed three blade sharpened on a flatstone will appear sharper after the shot and retain its edge as well compared to its scalpel blade counterpart.

Used once as intended, a replaceable blade "scalpel sharp" is more than adequate to produce mortal slicing and hemorrhaging. Who cares if it is thrown away after it serves its purpose.
 
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They will get sharp, but impossible to get the same. The included angle is not as steep as a blade with an edge independently made relative to its placement on the ferrule. A fixed three blade broadhead with blades offset at 120 deg from one another and sharpened on a flatstone will have what kind of angle to form the cutting edge? Hint: this is not a trick question.

They retain that edge because the angle is "more blunt" than a scalpel blade and won't roll over as easy. They appear to be more sharp. A SS fixed three blade sharpened on a flatstone will appear sharper after the shot and retain its edge as well compared to its scalpel blade counterpart.

Used once as intended, a replaceable blade "scalpel sharp" is more than adequate to produce mortal slicing and hemorrhaging. Who cares if it is thrown away after it serves its purpose.
Looking at a two blade, the angle can be whatever you want it to be. Three blade heads can be sharpened individually to produce the same effect if desired. The edge isn't more blunt, it just follows a different angle to get to the same finished width.
Cutting works by exceeding the shear strength of a material. Shear strength is expressed in square units of area. The smaller that area the force is exerted on, the less total force is required to shear (cut) the material. Thicker blades follow a different angle to get to that minimal surface area, but they're getting just as sharp. The difference is that stout blades made of quality material can support that edge while slicing through hide and bone. 420 isn't capable of it. The problem isn't throwing it away after. It's the fact that it isn't staying sharp and cutting to its full potential all the way through the animal.
A fine, scalpel type blade is no more effective than the shaving sharp edge on a head with thicker blades. Both cut fine blood vessels equally well, because they ultimately have the same cutting edge. The difference is that one holds its edge beyond the entry hole, and one doesn't. 420 can be made to feel sharp for the same reason 316 foil is sharp. It has to be made of a thin material with an extreme bevel angle because it blunts off so quickly. 420 SS is for $10 gas station knives and disposable razors.
It isn't that these materials won't kill an animal. They do, but performance could be greatly improved with more ideal metals. 420 isn't the only non-ideal material that is commonly utilized. 440C, 41L40, and 1075 are also extremely common despite major shortcomings. Their use reflects selection for cheaper production, lack of metallurgical knowledge, and lack of concern for product performance.
 

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"DADDY"
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So I guess the moral of the story here is........if you're going to use cheap steal BH's, at least use a large cut mechanical so you get big holes.:D Works for me.
 

Gumbo

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So I guess the moral of the story here is........if you're going to use cheap steal BH's, at least use a large cut mechanical so you get big holes.:D Works for me.

It's just not fair, wiith your setup you could probably punch a judo point clean through an elk!
 

Brandon_SPC

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Hardness has to do with the durability of the steel at impact relative to its use with broadheads. Some of the ones listed above do not have the blade angle that replacement blades do, which means you will never get them as sharp. Sure, they'll retain the edge better because they are more "blunt", relatively speaking.

The cow I shot that ran 20 yds or so was with a VPA...
I bet I can get all the ones I listed to shave hair...

They'll get every bit as sharp, and they'll retain it past the hide on the entry side. 420 SS (which every replaceable blade ever is made of) simply doesn't have the hardness or the carbide content to retain a razor edge beyond the hide or ribs on the entry side. Additionally, harder steels are actually capable of taking a much finer edge, simply because they are hard enough to support it. Really fine edges on 420 roll/fold or wear away under hard cutting force (like a broadhead punching through hide and ribs). A head that is razor sharp all the way through is going to help a lot with bleeding out the off side (supposing location is equal).
What Beendare said above is pretty much the whole rest of the story on blood trails.


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Not to deviate a little but if 420 SS doesn't have the hardness I'm curious to how my tuffheads have remained sharp after going through very dense media. Granted not "shaving" sharp but sharp enough to cut your finger on.
 

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"DADDY"
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It's just not fair, wiith your setup you could probably punch a judo point clean through an elk!

I did put a judo through a grouse one time that then stuck in an Aspen tree 3" deep.

I've seen plenty of shorter draw guys on here and AT shooting much faster IBO bows sending heavier arrows than I shoot faster than I shoot. I haven't seen a long draw high IBO bow.
 
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I bet I can get all the ones I listed to shave hair...


Not to deviate a little but if 420 SS doesn't have the hardness I'm curious to how my tuffheads have remained sharp after going through very dense media. Granted not "shaving" sharp but sharp enough to cut your finger on.
420 will get up around 52 HRC (which is what Tuffhead says theirs are). The shallow, gradual angle of those heads probably has a lot to do with it staying somewhat sharp. That's where a lot of materials end up. 41L40 (Bone Broadheads, Valkyrie Jagger) and 1075 (RMS Gear, Abowyer, most trad heads) are in that same neighborhood. I've seen them come out slightly sharp like you described, or butter knife dull.
Something up around 61 HRC with good carbide content and impact resistance is ideal. A2 is great, Crucible 3V is ideal, 10V or Bohler K390 might be ok. Grizzly Stik uses 440C. It hardens up great and has ok carbide content, but it would be hard to find something with poorer impact resistance.
I think the advantage of a head that is still razor sharp all the way through the animal is a bigger deal than most would expect. I don't think we realize just how dull most heads are before they even touch a vital organ.
Compare it to a knife. Fleshing capes eats a fine edge off a knife as fast as about anything. Havalon blades and Victorionox knives (420) last less than a minute. 1095 will go a little longer. CPM 154 will go for several minutes of work, even though it's no harder than the 1095. Alloys containing vanadium and tungsten carbides will go twice as long.
Broadheads have to take impact resistance into account, so the list of applicable alloys is a little shorter. If more broadhead manufacturers would take these factors into account, I think people would be shocked at the difference it would make in lethality. Iron Will is the only big seller that has, and they have been very successful.

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Brandon_SPC

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420 will get up around 52 HRC (which is what Tuffhead says theirs are). The shallow, gradual angle of those heads probably has a lot to do with it staying somewhat sharp. That's where a lot of materials end up. 41L40 (Bone Broadheads, Valkyrie Jagger) and 1075 (RMS Gear, Abowyer, most trad heads) are in that same neighborhood. I've seen them come out slightly sharp like you described, or butter knife dull.
Something up around 61 HRC with good carbide content and impact resistance is ideal. A2 is great, Crucible 3V is ideal, 10V or Bohler K390 might be ok. Grizzly Stik uses 440C. It hardens up great and has ok carbide content, but it would be hard to find something with poorer impact resistance.
I think the advantage of a head that is still razor sharp all the way through the animal is a bigger deal than most would expect. I don't think we realize just how dull most heads are before they even touch a vital organ.
Compare it to a knife. Fleshing capes eats a fine edge off a knife as fast as about anything. Havalon blades and Victorionox knives (420) last less than a minute. 1095 will go a little longer. CPM 154 will go for several minutes of work, even though it's no harder than the 1095. Alloys containing vanadium and tungsten carbides will go twice as long.
Broadheads have to take impact resistance into account, so the list of applicable alloys is a little shorter. If more broadhead manufacturers would take these factors into account, I think people would be shocked at the difference it would make in lethality. Iron Will is the only big seller that has, and they have been very successful.

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What's your thoughts on Day Six with their S30v steel?
 
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What's your thoughts on Day Six with their S30v steel?
S30V has good hardness and carbide content, which yields excellent edge holding ability. Its weakness is impact resistance. On anything but a hard bone hit, they'll probably be great. Much better than 420.

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"DADDY"
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Compare it to a knife. Fleshing capes eats a fine edge off a knife as fast as about anything. Havalon blades and Victorionox knives (420) last less than a minute.

I used my Buck 110 finger groove Hunter knife with 420 for years on deer and elk and never had a problem finishing up an animal from start to finish. Now with a Havalon I can completely skin and cape a big bull with one blade (as long as I'm careful to not break one). Those blades have come a long ways since the 80's when I tried scalpel blades and could barely get 1/4 way through a skinning job with one blade before it was dull as a butter knife. My S30V fixed knife works well too, but doesn't seem too different than my old Buck.
 
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Shot a buck this morning, it’s the 6th deer I’ve shot with G5 Strykers. I’m shooting a 2012 Hoyt Spyder, set at 65lbs. Fortunately I hunt pretty open country, and I’ve either watched them fall or watched them long enough to know exactly where thy went. All the deer have been lung or heart/lung, and every one has left very little blood. The couple that were heart shots did have a little more blood but still nothing like I was used to with my trad bow. Interestingly, the bull I shot with the same setup looked like someone dumped a bucket of blood. But man, on white tails and mulies I am getting almost no blood. I really like how the heads fly, and I’ve killed everything I’ve shot at with them. I just miss having a blood trail to follow. Anyone else have any experience with these heads? Is it just that I’m used to big COC 2 blades and trad gear?


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I shoot a 2013 hoyt spyder with G5 montecs. I have never had a blood trail issue up to this point, but have had some buddies with the same setups tell me the same thing. I think no matter the set up sometimes weird scenarios happen because each stalk/shot is so dynamic and different. Maybe they are just taking a little while longer to open up? It could be a variety of many things, but at the end of the day I think your set up is deadly and one of these times you will have a crazy good blood trail with a muley and the same shot!
 
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