Getting Tags - Point Creep vs ???

[Rich M]

We have point creep and increased numbers of applicants for western hunting.

What's the best option?

 

[Fitzwho]

Random draw is the overall "fairest" system of them all. Everybody on the same level. Definitely more tags the states would need to make purely once in a lifetime in this system (say only if successful to be fair and could be unit/area specific, i.e. NW Colorado elk units). Talking guys that have max points into that way of thinking is a tough one though. And I understand that. If I was sitting on 20-30 plus points in most states I would lean that way myself. But I have no more than 7 points anywhere.

If you are going to stick with a points system, a pure preference point system would be the next option. But you would have to legitimately apply for a hunt every year. No point only options. Basically Colorado's system minus the point only option.

 

[downthepipe]

People should of course should understand that states like Idaho have a completely random draw, but there are 1)waiting periods if you draw, 2) if you apply for moose, sheep, OR goat you can’t apply for Antelope, deer, and elk, and 3) there are certain general tags where you cannot buy the tag if you have applied for a hunt. So all that said, I think random draw with stipulations like these is the best (for residents). Non residents it’s the same but only up to 10% tags allowed to be drawn. Again, seems fair to me. Another thing people probably should understand is if you apply for a hunt with 5% chance to draw, then ON AVERAGE you will draw once every 20 years, but with as with every data set, there is a person that will draw 3 times in twenty years and a person that will draw 0 times in 60 years. The crux of the deal is it used to be that only the premier tags had a 5% draw chance, but now it’s almost every tag and the premier are now to 1-2% (once every 50-100 years).

 

[Jimmy]

I think residents should have better odds than non res. A lot of people can't afford or have the time to hunt much more than whats nearby.

I like a system that has a percentage going to PP and a percentage is random.

 

[HUNT JR]

I think residents should have better odds than non res. A lot of people can't afford or have the time to hunt much more than whats nearby.

I like a system that has a percentage going to PP and a percentage is random.

In Idaho they do, if the system was run like their system and limits non residents to up to 10% of the tags. Idaho residents draw odds are generally much better than non resident odds.

 

[elkyinzer]

Random is good.

Points suck.

Bonus points suck a little less.

Get rid of outfitter welfare.

Manage for opportunity within a balanced age structure as determined by biologists and leave the trophy hunting to ranches.

Res/nonres - I don't know. It's a tough one, I pretty much sit on the fence but I'm a nonres in every state but my own and appreciate the opportunities out there. I think any Res should be able to hunt a reasonable amount of opportunities close to home but some of the blatant power grabs we see for guaranteed primo tags statewide are super skeevy.

 

[cal30_sniper]

If you are going to stick with a points system, a pure preference point system would be the next option. But you would have to legitimately apply for a hunt every year. No point only options. Basically Colorado's system minus the point only option.

1. Must apply for a hunt code (no PP/BP code)
2. Full license cost if you don't draw your first choice and want a PP/BP
3. Only get a refund if you forfeit the PP/BP you would have earned
4. No applications for 3 years = forfeit point balance

 

[CApighunter]

My choices would be a true random draw or a bonus point system like NV if you have to have points. I think changing preference points to bonus points could be a viable option for states seeing excessive amount of creep. Those with the most points still have the best odds but there’s always to small chance of drawing with only a couple.

 

[Glendon Mullins]

hasnt this been discussed to the tune of 15 pages worth of posts in the "point creep light at end of tunnel thread"?????

 

[Btaylor]

Random thought here. With a point system create a 2 tier system, 3 point max units and 5 point max units. If you do not draw in 3 or 5 years, points go to zero and you start over. If you draw, you can not re-enter for either for the point tag drawn for equivalent years, so a 3 year set out or a 5 year set out. Thought process is a sort of hybrid point random draw that caps accumulation and keeps folks in the game to actually draw great tags.

 

[vanish]

Whatever happens, we need to disregard the current state when determining the ideal state, and only then determine a fair means of transition.

As an example, I often hear people whine that it would be unfair for, lets say Colorado, to go to a random draw (I'm not saying CO should, just showing an example) because people already have so many PP. The solution is simple: stop awarding new PP. Points would still be used as long as people had them, but eventually they would all be gone and all tags would be random. Nobody gets screwed in the transition.

 

[wind gypsy]

I like hybrid systems like AZ and WY. MT is ok in how it allocates tags/odds but it’s too damn convoluted.

I wouldn’t want every state to be the same system though. The way it is now allows me to be confident each year that I’ll have a tag in MT, WY, or CO and swing for the fences in states that aren’t a nearly sure thing.

 

[Rich M]

hasnt this been discussed to the tune of 15 pages worth of posts in the "point creep light at end of tunnel thread"?????

This one provides a pretty graph as opposed to having to read any of it.

The guy who says that in order to get a pref point, you pay the entire tag cost - that should lower the overall tag cost structure cause it will be carried by the guys wanting the points. F&G will get plenty of $.

 

[realunlucky]

I like bonus points-- for every year your entered into the draw you get a point. It gives those in game longer a slight advantage with more chances but still offers the first timer a chance to draw.

I also like having to actually enter the draw and be unsuccessful in order to obtain a point. No longer allow for straight point purchase.

Using cost to limit the number of applications is a slippery slope to tags for the highest bidder and goes against the current conversation model.

 

[CorbLand]

In order of my opinion of what is best to worst

Random draw
Bonus points
Preference points

Obviously, each should have their own differences if selected.

 

[Hatchet Jack]

I like having different systems among the states. It sure makes it easier to plan for a tag. You can basically book your Colorado plans a year in advance (except this year) and still have a good idea what you'll draw in Utah, wyo, AZ and NV and plan for it, but still manage to get lucky every now and then with a random tag. Then if you don't have much planned as far as spending your points you can throw your name in for NM and ID random tags.

It allows you to identify the states you want to hold out for a top tier tag, and the others you can build a handful of pts for a good tag, and other states apply for the lower tier and still hunt them almost every year and have a great hunt. I'm all but guaranteed a paunsaugunt muzzleloader tag in the next 2 years. With a purely random system there's a good chance i never sniff one of those kinds of tags in my life.

 

[realunlucky]

I like having different systems among the states. It sure makes it easier to plan for a tag. You can basically book your Colorado plans a year in advance (except this year) and still have a good idea what you'll draw in Utah, wyo, AZ and NV and plan for it, but still manage to get lucky every now and then with a random tag. Then if you don't have much planned as far as spending your points you can throw your name in for NM and ID random tags.

It allows you to identify the states you want to hold out for a top tier tag, and the others you can build a handful of pts for a good tag, and other states apply for the lower tier and still hunt them almost every year and have a great hunt. I'm all but guaranteed a paunsaugunt muzzleloader tag in the next 2 years. With a purely random system there's a good chance i never sniff one of those kinds of tags in my life.

Perspective is different from the top no doubt.

My 12 year old applied for every single tag she was legally able to including antlerless and drew zero tags her first year. That's the awesomeness of points.

 

[tt_johnsclist]

Like I said in the other thread, the only things that will reduce creep are more game or less hunters. Simple supply and demand. All of the options in your poll are different ways of allocating tags to a growing number of hunters for a declining base of game - but none are alternatives to creep nor will they address the problem. The closest would be “highest bidder” because it prices many people out, though the highest bids will still creep upwards annually with fewer game and/or more wealthy hunters.

 

[realunlucky]

Like I said in the other thread, the only things that will reduce creep are more game or less hunters. Simple supply and demand. All of the options in your poll are different ways of allocating tags to a growing number of hunters for a declining base of game - but none are alternatives to creep nor will they address the problem. The closest would be “highest bidder” because it prices many people out, though the highest bids will still creep upwards annually with fewer game and/or more wealthy hunters.

If there was more focus on opportunity and less on trophy quality there would be more available tags.

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

 

[Hatchet Jack]

Perspective is different from the top no doubt.

My 12 year old applied for every single tag she was legally able to including antlerless and drew zero tags her first year. That's the awesomeness of points.

My favorite hunts are the ones I draw every year; rifle and muzzleloader tags in areas if a guy puts in work he can have a great hunt. If you want to hunt the opportunity is there.