GNP: going to the sun ticket sytem thoughts?

[bobr1]

Just wanted to see peoples thought on GNP going to ticket system for dealing with the influx of the all the people in the last year. I think it is really sad as I understand it is a national park and it is open to everyone with no preference but the full time employees and all the volunteer groups that work there live in town and find it annoying that there is no preference and most of the locals I know couldn't get a ticket to go to the park this morning. It's crazy that before last year you could just drive to logan's pass and just enjoy it. I don't really care about it to much as I am fine getting there super early. However, I had to deal with it because my wifes family is coming into town and I had to deal with the BS of getting a ticket. Took 8 people trying at the same time to get 1 ticket to be able to go. I see the local rivers also going to permit systems soon which was in the works pre COVID and with the influx of people. Idk, not trying to be a downer, but man Montana is getting shafted by the new people and remote workers who typically take and don't contribute to the community. Wyoming, Alaska do you guys have room for 2 more people in the future?

 

[Antarctica]

Any park that needs a ticket system, I have no interest in, unless its off season.

What I don't understand is how permits can be required for rivers. How does anyone/any group/any bureau have jurisdiction on navigable waterways?

 

[Mojave]

Road to the Sun has been crowded for 30 years. Probably longer than that.

 

[Geewhiz]

man Montana is getting shafted by the new people and remote workers who typically take and don't contribute to the community.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[WCB]

Montana is going down the tubes faster than anywhere in the country. In fact it is about half way down already.

 

[Mojave]

Most rural states have had some growth as people don't want to live in big cities anymore. Covid has exacerbated the issue as anyone who could telework or could retire as done so.

This has pushed housing prices up, caused public schools in popular areas to burst with new students and lead to changes in voting demographics.

Here in New Mexico we have actually become more conservative as most of the people that fled big cities were Republicans that didn't want to live in Boston, Cleveland or Las Vegas anymore. If it wasn't for the people we take in from Mexico we would probably flip red.

Wyoming, Idaho and Montana have also had huge numbers of people leave for other states. I don't remember the exact numbers, but many rural Western States had more people move to California in 2019 than they did move from California or it was very close. Colorado, Texas, Florida and other states did not. They got 30-50% more Californians than they sent to California.

When you drive through newer Las Cruces suburbs you see license plates from all over the country in newer housing developments. My parents live in Cheyenne and my cousin's live in Casper and it is the same. But there are plates from Wyoming, Idaho and Montana here too.

People move, they have always moved. The pandemic has made things worse, and there is nothing you can do to change that.

My grandfather told me that when he immigrated from Germany in the 1930's that people complained that there were too many immigrants in Wyoming.

I spent a month in the Yukon living out of my RV in 2014. I met people from all over the world, and many of them were trying to move there or had moved there.

There are 330,000,000 Americans as much as we'd like to have the entire Gila, Grosse Ventre, Bob Marshall or any place else to ourselves those days have been over for 50 years.

 

[Whaledriver]

Just wanted to see peoples thought on GNP going to ticket system for dealing with the influx of the all the people in the last year. I think it is really sad as I understand it is a national park and it is open to everyone with no preference but the full time employees and all the volunteer groups that work there live in town and find it annoying that there is no preference and most of the locals I know couldn't get a ticket to go to the park this morning. It's crazy that before last year you could just drive to logan's pass and just enjoy it. I don't really care about it to much as I am fine getting there super early. However, I had to deal with it because my wifes family is coming into town and I had to deal with the BS of getting a ticket. Took 8 people trying at the same time to get 1 ticket to be able to go. I see the local rivers also going to permit systems soon which was in the works pre COVID and with the influx of people. Idk, not trying to be a downer, but man Montana is getting shafted by the new people and remote workers who typically take and don't contribute to the community. Wyoming, Alaska do you guys have room for 2 more people in the future?

I hear you. My family and I are coming up from Colorado again this year. Yet another government overreach in my opinion. The permit makes for a huge pain in the ass! Unfortunately it is the price you pay for living in a beautiful place. I live in Evergreen, CO. During the summer I can't go downtown anymore. Can't park and people are literally everywhere. I whine and bitch but also know I live in a beautiful place that a lot of people only get to day trip. I used to call Montana, Colorado without the people. That was definitely changed over the past 20 years!

 

[bozeman]

We are planned for July.......cant wait....dont like it, but you gotta pay to play, just like most other things....

I am still trying to understand when you can reserve a ticket for July?? They seem lost and trying to contact recreation.gov is a joke.

 

[Mojave]

Couldn't agree more.

I don't understand how remote workers take and don't contribute to the community.

If I make $50,000 a year as a teleworker (or $500,000 doesn't matter), I am still paying taxes, buying food, buying trucks, sending my kids to school and so on where I live. There is no way around that.

The only change is that the company I work for may not be based in Montana or wherever for argument sake you want to put it.

Many federal employees already are in this pool. If I work for the Forest Service or IRS in Montana they aren't paying taxes in Montana either as they are federal and have no taxes. I am talking about the organization not the person. Everyone pays both state and local taxes in their domiciled state.

 

[S.Clancy]

I live 3 hrs away and I couldn't care less. That place has been a shit show my entire life, so back to the mid 80s

 

[Mojave]

Growing up in Deer Lodge, Casper and Riverton if we wanted to have wilderness to ourselves we went someplace where there wasn't any people. If we wanted to go to Glacier or Yellowstone we knew that we would have idiots all over us.

I remember full campgrounds in Yellowstone in the 1980's.

I remember full campgrounds on the Eastern side of Glacier during the same period. You wouldn't think people would venture to the Eastern side of Glacier, but they do.

The Western side of Glacier has always been a complete loon fest.

If you think National Parks in Wyoming and Montana are full of people go to Death Valley, Sequoias, Red Woods, Yosemite, Rocky Mountain (oh that place sucks, pretty but the people make it suck).

Go to the Lincoln National Forest in New Mexico. For most Texans it is the closest western mountain escape. Sucks so bad. So many people.

 

[JeffRaines]

Growing up in Deer Lodge, Casper and Riverton if we wanted to have wilderness to ourselves we went someplace where there wasn't any people. If we wanted to go to Glacier or Yellowstone we knew that we would have idiots all over us.

I remember full campgrounds in Yellowstone in the 1980's.

I remember full campgrounds on the Eastern side of Glacier during the same period. You wouldn't think people would venture to the Eastern side of Glacier, but they do.

The Western side of Glacier has always been a complete loon fest.

If you think National Parks in Wyoming and Montana are full of people go to Death Valley, Sequoias, Red Woods, Yosemite, Rocky Mountain (oh that place sucks, pretty but the people make it suck).

Go to the Lincoln National Forest in New Mexico. For most Texans it is the closest western mountain escape. Sucks so bad. So many people.

Yep, if you want to have someplace to yourself your best bet is to find some out of the way place. There are still “diamonds in the rough” if you look.

Me and my wife found one in Montana last year by accident. I plotted out a place I wanted to fish that looked out of the way and sure enough we got there and not only was it gorgeous and secluded - there wasn’t a damn soul at any of the trails there and it was on a weekend in the height of summer. I made the comment to my wife that if we were in Washington you wouldnt be able to get within a mile of any of the trailheads.

Now that’s heaven.

 

[bsnedeker]

I don't understand how remote workers take and don't contribute to the community.

If I make $50,000 a year as a teleworker (or $500,000 doesn't matter), I am still paying taxes, buying food, buying trucks, sending my kids to school and so on where I live. There is no way around that.

The only change is that the company I work for may not be based in Montana or wherever for argument sake you want to put it.

Many federal employees already are in this pool. If I work for the Forest Service or IRS in Montana they aren't paying taxes in Montana either as they are federal and have no taxes. I am talking about the organization not the person. Everyone pays both state and local taxes in their domiciled state.

The amount you make as a teleworker matters very much, that is why you don't understand the problem.

The issue is that wages in western states are significantly lower than they are in big cities where most of these teleworkers are coming from. When these folks move here and work remotely they are not taking a pay cuts to do so. This means they can afford to spend more on housing. This drives up housing prices. This means that locals can't afford housing. This kills communities. You can look at the housing markets up here in the Flathead Valley where I live, as well as Bozeman to see this in action right now.

It is a real problem. I don't know what the solution is as it's very complicated.

 

[william schmaltz]

If you don't like huge influxes of seasonal employees and tourists, Alaska is the last place for you. A guy can barely drive home from work without traffic being back up from a wall of RVs going 50 mph down the highway or almost getting in an accident because RVs filled with tourists are blocking half the highway because they're pulled over to look at an effing cow moose.

Sounds like glacier is headed the same way as Denali. Give it a few more years and it will be only tour buses like Denali. Our only option of driving in Denali NP is through a lottery with about a 15% chance of getting drawn. And you get assigned one day to do it within a three day window.

 

[Mojave]

The amount you make as a teleworker matters very much, that is why you don't understand the problem.

The issue is that wages in western states are significantly lower than they are in big cities where most of these teleworkers are coming from. When these folks move here and work remotely they are not taking a pay cuts to do so. This means they can afford to spend more on housing. This drives up housing prices. This means that locals can't afford housing. This kills communities. You can look at the housing markets up here in the Flathead Valley where I live, as well as Bozeman to see this in action right now.

It is a real problem. I don't know what the solution is as it's very complicated.

Bozeman and the Flathead have been expensive for 30 years.

 

[Mojave]

The amount you make as a teleworker matters very much, that is why you don't understand the problem.

The issue is that wages in western states are significantly lower than they are in big cities where most of these teleworkers are coming from. When these folks move here and work remotely they are not taking a pay cuts to do so. This means they can afford to spend more on housing. This drives up housing prices. This means that locals can't afford housing. This kills communities. You can look at the housing markets up here in the Flathead Valley where I live, as well as Bozeman to see this in action right now.

It is a real problem. I don't know what the solution is as it's very complicated.

You originally said they don't contribute,, of course they contribute. What you are talking about is an entirely different problem. They "ruin" areas by increasing the cost.

Yes I agree.

This is going on any place desirable in the West.

Even in shitty Las Cruces, all the retired and teleworkers have doubled the housing cost in 3 years. Covid exacerbated it.

What can we do about it?

Nothing!

 

[Geewhiz]

You originally said they don't contribute,, of course they contribute. What you are talking about is an entirely different problem. They "ruin" areas by increasing the cost.

Yes I agree.

This is going on any place desirable in the West.

Even in shitty Las Cruces, all the retired and teleworkers have doubled the housing cost in 3 years. Covid exacerbated it.

What can we do about it?

Nothing!

You're right. A guy from new mexico knows more about our state than we do. Thanks for your input.

 

[bobr1]

You originally said they don't contribute,, of course they contribute. What you are talking about is an entirely different problem. They "ruin" areas by increasing the cost.

Yes I agree.

This is going on any place desirable in the West.

Even in shitty Las Cruces, all the retired and teleworkers have doubled the housing cost in 3 years. Covid exacerbated it.

What can we do about it?

Nothing!

Just curious how the mass exodus of remote workers who moved recently to Montana truly contribute to the community they live in by not working or helping the people in the community?

 

[bobr1]

If you don't like huge influxes of seasonal employees and tourists, Alaska is the last place for you. A guy can barely drive home from work without traffic being back up from a wall of RVs going 50 mph down the highway or almost getting in an accident because RVs filled with tourists are blocking half the highway because they're pulled over to look at an effing cow moose.

Sounds like glacier is headed the same way as Denali. Give it a few more years and it will be only tour buses like Denali. Our only option of driving in Denali NP is through a lottery with about a 15% chance of getting drawn. And you get assigned one day to do it within a three day window.

Yeah, I understand. I have friends that live in Homer and Seward. I really like the area but they said it is getting insanely costly. Plus they tell me even with instate license cost it is really expensive for transport and most of the outfitters and pilots are catering to nonresidents as they are paying and tipping a lot to go one a hunt. But if I was to move to alaska it would be in tent in the middle of no where most likely without having my wife anymore lol.

 

[bobr1]

I always love the logic of paying fast food workers and paying taxes as contributing to a community. If you love contributing to taxes then why work remotely in lower tax burdened area. Isn't one of the main reasons people are leaving the big cities is due to the high rate of taxes? Sure, maybe the business owner does well from you supporting their business. But their employees, which are working service industry make less than $15 an hour and median house prices in bozeman being over 700k and over 400K in the flathead those contributions help so much....Also, this year was not like any in the past, where it is more like point creep and slowly more people and toursit show up. You're talking huge numbers in less than 1 year. Bozeman went up 45% in price for median home in a year. Again I need to reiterate, this is not about me being affected by it, it is my talking about others and the community itself being affected. I know I can go to another area and camp and fish and do whatever. I just genuinely feel for people in the community and people that had families here for multiple generations having to leave.