Good factual documentary on wolves

RCB

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I’m not sure. I’m sure others know better, but my impression is that the long term effect of wolves on large ranging ungulate populations is still uncertain?

Certainly we know they will reduce them. In some local areas, a lot. Elk in the Yellowstone area are still like <1/3 of their size at time of introduction, and dropped well below that years ago I believe. They seem to be slowly growing or stabilizing over the last 10 years or so, if I understand correctly.

Do they pose a major threat to hunting? In the long term, I don’t think anyone knows for sure. It’s possible. But consider the growth of wolves in western Montana since the early 2000s. They’ve grown from less than 100 to over 650 in that time, with packs ranging the whole western region. Has elk hunting declined catastrophically since then? On the whole, No. Looking at the harvest numbers back to 2004 (as far as I could find in MT game and fish site) , they’ve been effectively stable, with some ups and downs. 2017 was actually the best year of the bunch: 30k elk harvested as compared to 23k in 2004. Those are statewide numbers. I’m sure some local areas are seeing declines, but on the whole elk hunting in MT seems to be doing just fine. So far.

To repeat, This doesn’t mean I think wolves have no effect. That would be silly. Perhaps as wolves continue to spread in western MT we will see a long term decline in hunter harvest. Maybe even drastically. I grant that possibility. But I think it’s uncertain.

Do share any disagreements.
I looked at the numbers again for just the 3 western regions of MT, where the wolves are. 2017 had a total elk harvest of 19.8k, more than the 17k of 2004. It’s tricky, though. On the whole it looks like a downward trend, going from around 17k to around 13k - until just the last few years, where harvest numbers suddenly jumped up to 19k. So it’s hard to say. Perhaps an overall trend of decrease will emerge in the coming years.
 
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BuzzH

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RCB,

You'll learn real quickly that taking a reasonable and pragmatic look at the wolf issue just doesn't work with a lot of people, on both sides of the issue. Why I largely don't comment much when these type of threads are started, mainly because discussion doesn't happen and they turn to complete crap.

There's plenty of research and science out there for those that want to look at facts. I've been involved with this issue for a long time and provided comments in the Draft and Final EIS on reintroduction. I also know, knew, or worked with a lot of the people involved with the reintroduction to Yellowstone and Central Idaho.

A good thing to do is to read the EIS, read the predation studies, read the APHIS reports on livestock losses, look at the big-game harvest reports, etc. etc. and come to your own conclusions.

You're not going to learn anything listening to the rhetoric from the loudmouths on both sides of the issue.
 

Okhotnik

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RCB,

You'll learn real quickly that taking a reasonable and pragmatic look at the wolf issue just doesn't work with a lot of people, on both sides of the issue. Why I largely don't comment much when these type of threads are started, mainly because discussion doesn't happen and they turn to complete crap.

There's plenty of research and science out there for those that want to look at facts. I've been involved with this issue for a long time and provided comments in the Draft and Final EIS on reintroduction. I also know, knew, or worked with a lot of the people involved with the reintroduction to Yellowstone and Central Idaho.

A good thing to do is to read the EIS, read the predation studies, read the APHIS reports on livestock losses, look at the big-game harvest reports, etc. etc. and come to your own conclusions.

You're not going to learn anything listening to the rhetoric from the loudmouths on both sides of the issue.

You forgot to mention how Montana and Idaho managed to finally get a handle on their exploding populations.
Buzzh.

Can you use trapping, long generous tags seasons and poison in Montana and Idaho to control wolf populations?

Can you control wolf populations without trapping? Would they ever allow trapping in Colorado?RCB please chime in here

How is the wolf management going in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan and Oregon Washington?

Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota are way over their wolf management objectives but not allowed to manage their wolf populations. Can you provide a recent study for those states? Does the over abundance of wolves in those states help the moose and deer herds?
 

pdp

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It was a cool experience. I was bear hunting with my 13 year old son and we got to watch a wild ass wolf chomping on a moose carcass for 10 minutes or so. Yeah, I was excited. That doesn’t mean I’m instantly an anti hunter or pro wolf liberal.
The fact that we can’t be in awe at the sight of a wolf disturbs me. I’m in awe at many things in nature. The first time a bull elk screamed out a bulge at 25 yards away. The first time I watched two mature bucks fighting. The first time I saw a black bear up close or the time I was charged by a moose. All those experiences rank right there with my first wolf sighting. The day I no longer feel a since of awe at what Mother Nature has to offer is the day I quit hunting and just take up golf....


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Great experience with your son. Nothing better than being out with your kids. He will remember that forever.
 

Ratbeetle

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RCB,

You'll learn real quickly that taking a reasonable and pragmatic look at the wolf issue just doesn't work with a lot of people, on both sides of the issue. Why I largely don't comment much when these type of threads are started, mainly because discussion doesn't happen and they turn to complete crap.

There's plenty of research and science out there for those that want to look at facts. I've been involved with this issue for a long time and provided comments in the Draft and Final EIS on reintroduction. I also know, knew, or worked with a lot of the people involved with the reintroduction to Yellowstone and Central Idaho.

A good thing to do is to read the EIS, read the predation studies, read the APHIS reports on livestock losses, look at the big-game harvest reports, etc. etc. and come to your own conclusions.

You're not going to learn anything listening to the rhetoric from the loudmouths on both sides of the issue.

Well by all means, don't share the comments you provided to the EIS here. After all, a forum is no place for passing along information.
 

Redside

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I looked at the numbers again for just the 3 western regions of MT, where the wolves are. 2017 had a total elk harvest of 19.8k, more than the 17k of 2004. It’s tricky, though. On the whole it looks like a downward trend, going from around 17k to around 13k - until just the last few years, where harvest numbers suddenly jumped up to 19k. So it’s hard to say. Perhaps an overall trend of decrease will emerge in the coming years.

I can't remember what year, I think 2017, the MT Game and Fish opened up shoulder seasons in many units. They allowed hunting on private property before and after the regular season for cow elk. Without looking at any numbers, I'm guessing the sudden increase is from that, but I could be wrong.
 

Okhotnik

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I can't remember what year, I think 2017, the MT Game and Fish opened up shoulder seasons in many units. They allowed hunting on private property before and after the regular season for cow elk. Without looking at any numbers, I'm guessing the sudden increase is from that, but I could be wrong.


Good point

I don’t agree with shoulders seasons but they definitely increased harvest stats for elk
 
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You forgot to mention how Montana and Idaho managed to finally get a handle on their exploding populations.
Buzzh.

Can you use trapping, long generous tags seasons and poison in Montana and Idaho to control wolf populations?

Can you control wolf populations without trapping? Would they ever allow trapping in Colorado?RCB please chime in here

How is the wolf management going in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan and Oregon Washington?

Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota are way over their wolf management objectives but not allowed to manage their wolf populations. Can you provide a recent study for those states? Does the over abundance of wolves in those states help the moose and deer herds?
Living in Illinois, I've been fishing in all three of these states my whole life. I've heard Wolves hollowing in Minnesota, but have never seen a wolf in any of the three states. I see deer everywhere in all three. Not very many cattle ranchers in those states to cry broke, but I can certainly see a video in the future addressing the crop damage to agricultural fields by the introduction of elk. Are any of you going to stand with the farmers then?

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Okhotnik

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Living in Illinois, I've been fishing in all three of these states my whole life. I've heard Wolves hollowing in Minnesota, but have never seen a wolf in any of the three states. I see deer everywhere in all three. Not very many cattle ranchers in those states to cry broke, but I can certainly see a video in the future addressing the crop damage to agricultural fields by the introduction of elk. Are any of you going to stand with the farmers then?

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Those dang horrible ranchers. They should be outlawed. And living in urban Illinois and have never seen a wolf I know what I’m talking about.

I see wolves every time I go home to grouse hunt in Wisconsin and Minnesota and I don’t even try to
Locate them. My friends get more pics of wolves than deer on their trail cams. When i fish up there like you I don’t see many wolves swimming in the lakes and rivers up there.

Hint the wolves are in the North part of those states and at lest a few feet from parking lots. Have many wolves in Chicago?

Farmers already get crop damage permits for deer in case you didn’t know that but the deer numbers are just a bit higher than elk but residing Illinois you would know that😂
 
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RCB

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I can't remember what year, I think 2017, the MT Game and Fish opened up shoulder seasons in many units. They allowed hunting on private property before and after the regular season for cow elk. Without looking at any numbers, I'm guessing the sudden increase is from that, but I could be wrong.
Good to know. Presumably game and fish wouldn't have increased harvest amounts unless they felt the population could handle that harvest - though I'm sure that's a controversial statement.

In any case, I looked at the state's total population estimates for regions 1, 2, and 3, from 2012 to 2018. They increased from about 89k to about 105k. So I think the point stands that, despite 600+ wolves, elk are doing fine in western Montana. For the time being, anyway.
 
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Those dang horrible ranchers. They should be outlawed. And living in urban Illinois and have never seen a wolf I know what I’m talking about.

I see wolves every time I go home to grouse hunt in Wisconsin and Minnesota and I don’t even try to
Locate them. My friends get more pics of wolves than deer on their trail cams. When i fish up there like you I don’t see many wolves swimming in the lakes and rivers up there.

Hint the wolves are in the North part of those states and at lest a few feet from parking lots. Have many wolves in Chicago?

Farmers already get crop damage permits for deer in case you didn’t know that but the deer numbers are just a bit higher than elk but residing Illinois you would know that
I just spent 4 days deer hunting in northern Wisconsin last November. I saw 30 does, one buck and 0 wolves. Camped out 4 night and never heard a hollow. I camped 10 nights in Idaho last September and never heard or seen a wolf either. Here in Illinois people use other excuses for their lack of success (blue tongue, CWD). It seems in our nature to look back at the past with rose colored glasses and search for excuses why we're not successful now. I would think everyone on here would agree that we as hunters need to control predator numbers. The point of myself and others pushing back is to show that we'll never win a debate on this subject outside of our echo chamber using emotion based arguments. Let's leave that strategy for the left.

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Okhotnik

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The pro wolf groups that reside in urban areas sure seem to hate ranchers. Do they know where their organic free range carbon neutral beef comes from? I doubt it

I love ranchers and all my neighbors run cows. I have access to hunt their properties. I love ranchers in Montana Wyoming and Oregon and Idaho and Alberta and North Dakota and love to hunt on their ranches . They all hate wolves because they kill their live stock and just eat a small portion of cows they kill




BTW I spend 365 days a year in country that hold wolves and see them often

What strategy would you use to win this debate?

Embrace anti hunting crowd that out number us?

Not fighting back sure has worked in Wisconsin Michigan and Minnesota

I kept journals when I started hunting in Wisconsin starting in 74

During rifle season it was not uncommon to see 40 to 50 does a day and a half dozen bucks

In the 80’s and 90’s bow hunting the rut I rountinely saw 4 to 6 bucks a day and at least a dozen does

Shining farmers fields at night could count 200 deer easily in an hour of shining . Shining deer over 25 years

I went shining 2 years ago and we saw 3 fawns and one mature doe around town and six wolves in 2 hours

The farmers fields that held up to 50 to 60 deer for years were barren
 
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Okhotnik

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Good to know. Presumably game and fish wouldn't have increased harvest amounts unless they felt the population could handle that harvest - though I'm sure that's a controversial statement.

In any case, I looked at the state's total population estimates for regions 1, 2, and 3, from 2012 to 2018. They increased from about 89k to about 105k. So I think the point stands that, despite 600+ wolves, elk are doing fine in western Montana. For the time being, anyway.


How does Montana control their wolf populations?

Did you look at data before hunting and trapping was allowed?

Probably not
 

Redside

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Good to know. Presumably game and fish wouldn't have increased harvest amounts unless they felt the population could handle that harvest - though I'm sure that's a controversial statement.

In any case, I looked at the state's total population estimates for regions 1, 2, and 3, from 2012 to 2018. They increased from about 89k to about 105k. So I think the point stands that, despite 600+ wolves, elk are doing fine in western Montana. For the time being, anyway.
Ha, presumably, you'd think so wouldn't ya. Unfortunately the MT legislature mandated MT FWP to manage elk based on old population objectives. The unit I hunt is under objective and they still increased hunting pressure last year when they redid the regulations. I'm sure Buzz will weigh in on that if he wants. Or you can go search some posts of his on hunttalk. Its controversial for sure.

I moved here in 2006 so I saw the end of the bigger elk numbers. Watched them dwindle down while they fought about hunting wolves and then after hunting wolves was allowed to make somewhat of a comeback. I actually saw calves the past few years. I doubt the numbers compare to what they were before wolves, but since they have allowed hunting wolves I think the unit I hunt is better than it was before wolf hunting began. I don't see how it could be without.

Wolves are here to stay, your going to get them in CO whether you vote them in or not, but they need to be managed.
 

RCB

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Ha, presumably, you'd think so wouldn't ya. Unfortunately the MT legislature mandated MT FWP to manage elk based on old population objectives. The unit I hunt is under objective and they still increased hunting pressure last year when they redid the regulations. I'm sure Buzz will weigh in on that if he wants. Or you can go search some posts of his on hunttalk. Its controversial for sure.

I moved here in 2006 so I saw the end of the bigger elk numbers. Watched them dwindle down while they fought about hunting wolves and then after hunting wolves was allowed to make somewhat of a comeback. I actually saw calves the past few years. I doubt the numbers compare to what they were before wolves, but since they have allowed hunting wolves I think the unit I hunt is better than it was before wolf hunting began. I don't see how it could be without.

Wolves are here to stay, your going to get them in CO whether you vote them in or not, but they need to be managed.
Thanks for sharing. I think everyone here agrees that if wolves are to be introduced anywhere in the lower 48, their population needs to be managed. The MT case suggests it is possible to see stable elk populations if they are managed, though of course we don’t know what will happen in the long run yet. As I’ve said before, I’d probably not vote in favor of reintroduction, but not sure.
 
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RCB

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How does Montana control their wolf populations?

Did you look at data before hunting and trapping was allowed?

Probably not
By hunting and trapping. I support this. Never said or indicated otherwise.

The data on their site only goes back to 2008. Hunting started in 2009 and trapping in 2012. So it’s not much data. Anyway, the state’s population estimates were...
2008: 136k
2018: 138k

No real difference there. I’ll look around for prior estimates.
 
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Ratbeetle

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Thanks for sharing. I think everyone here agrees that if wolves are to be introduced anywhere in the lower 49, their population needs to be managed. The MT case suggests it is possible to see stable elk populations if they are managed, though of course we don’t know what will happen in the long run yet. As I’ve said before, I’d probably not vote in favor of reintroduction, but not sure.

Do you think Boulder is going to allow wolf hunting? That is the underlying problem. Unfortunately CO is just CA lite and the greenies won't allow state game management agencies to properly manage predators. At least not until little yappy dogs start getting snatched off the trails at Chautauqua. By then it's too late.

Wolves in montana met their recovery criteria in 2002. It took seven years to be able to hunt them and then there was a lawsuit to stop the season in 2010. This was Montana. Now picture the front range and tell me how it plays out here. It will be a disaster.

As was mentioned earlier, wolves will make their way here eventually. Why on earth would anyone, especially a hunter, want to accelerate that process?
 

Okhotnik

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Do you think Boulder is going to allow wolf hunting? That is the underlying problem. Unfortunately CO is just CA lite and the greenies won't allow state game management agencies to properly manage predators. At least not until little yappy dogs start getting snatched off the trails at Chautauqua. By then it's too late.

Wolves in montana met their recovery criteria in 2002. It took seven years to be able to hunt them and then there was a lawsuit to stop the season in 2010. This was Montana. Now picture the front range and tell me how it plays out here. It will be a disaster.

As was mentioned earlier, wolves will make their way here eventually. Why on earth would anyone, especially a hunter, want to accelerate that process?

RCB said he still might vote for the introduction of wolves into Colorado despite all this info and the fact Colorado will never allow trapping and hunting of wolves

What does this tell you about RCB?
 

RCB

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Do you think Boulder is going to allow wolf hunting? That is the underlying problem. Unfortunately CO is just CA lite and the greenies won't allow state game management agencies to properly manage predators. At least not until little yappy dogs start getting snatched off the trails at Chautauqua. By then it's too late.

Wolves in montana met their recovery criteria in 2002. It took seven years to be able to hunt them and then there was a lawsuit to stop the season in 2010. This was Montana. Now picture the front range and tell me how it plays out here. It will be a disaster.

As was mentioned earlier, wolves will make their way here eventually. Why on earth would anyone, especially a hunter, want to accelerate that process?
Your concerns about Colorado are valid. As I’ve said, I’m undecided but lean against it. If it were to come to a vote, I think I’d only consider voting for it if it were somehow clear that the management plan were to explicitly allow hunting and trapping. I think that’s unlikely (and even if it’s in print it might not happen) but we’ll see. If natural recolonization is going to happen anyway, would prefer that.

I’m personally doing nothing to accelerate the process.
 
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Beendare

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Guys chiming in saying they have never seen a wolf....and Buzz saying read the reports...both insinuating wolves are not a problem?

Seems to me this video is legit- wolves can be a huge problem in some areas- a serious economic impact.

There is no denying the devastation to elk. It seems the best guess is a mature wolf will eat apps 22 elk a year based on F&G comments.

It seems elk populations are finally stabilizing though the F&G tempers their comments with the fact there are HUGE inaccuracies in their observations. Its absolutely stunning how many elk that wolves eat; Wyo files-wolves

From the link;
Yellowstone wolves may kill up to 2,156 elk in the park each year and as many as 11,600 in the Greater Yellowstone region, figures derived from 20 years of wolf study in the park indicate.

After 20 years of wolves occupying Yellowstone National Park, biologist Doug Smith has suggested the answer to a long-asked question: how many elk do Yellowstone wolves eat?
.....


To answer the question of how many elk an average wolf eats in a year, Smith teased out a figure from seasonal estimates. In early winter, for example, he estimates a wolf will kill and consume 1.4 elk every 30 days.

In late winter that number goes up to 2.2 elk per wolf every 30 days. Over the entire winter season, the average comes out to 1.8 elk per wolf in 30 days.

But that rate doesn’t persist. In summer, wolves turn their attention to deer and even rodents, Smith said.

Over the course of a year, an average wolf will kill — mostly with other pack members — and consume 16 to 22 elk a year, Smith said. “That’s a rough estimate.”
 
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