Gunwerks ML-Worth the $?

[kjw]

I had a former boss that purchased the muzzle stuffer from gunwerks. It was unreal that a ML could shoot like that. We practiced with it at over 600 yds and rarely had an issue breaking volleyball sized rocks. It was basically like shooting a single shot center fire. I never hunted with it but the shots I took with it impressed me. If you planning on hunting states where it is legal and can afford the setup, go for it.

 

[kotaclass29]

I would LOVE one of these, but we can only draw a tag about once every 10 years, so that’s a tough one to swallow!

 

[n8tivenv]

Check out Jeff Fisk at bestill custom creations on Facebook, he can build a custom tc omega smokeless muzzloader that is comparable in accuracy to the gunwerks setup for under 3 grand ready to go with no ffl forms. I’m having one built right now. Gun will also shoot blackhorn 209.

 

[ENCORE]

Check out Jeff Fisk at bestill custom creations on Facebook, he can build a custom tc omega smokeless muzzloader that is comparable in accuracy to the gunwerks setup for under 3 grand ready to go with no ffl forms. I’m having one built right now. Gun will also shoot blackhorn 209.

I'm just about to box up a rifle to send Jeff myself next week.

 

[Azone]

Would a conversion like this work on a Savage action? I have a Savage 114 American Classic in .325 WSM that I won at a banquet, I have zero plans on using it for anything. I was leaning towards putting a .270 WSM barrel on it, but a 500 yard muzzleloader would come in very handy for my needs as of late.

 

[ENCORE]

Would a conversion like this work on a Savage action? I have a Savage 114 American Classic in .325 WSM that I won at a banquet, I have zero plans on using it for anything. I was leaning towards putting a .270 WSM barrel on it, but a 500 yard muzzleloader would come in very handy for my needs as of late.

My suggestion would be, call Luke at ASG, Levi at LR Customs, or Jeff at Bestill Creations. You WILL get straight forward and honest answers from all three of these builders.

Arrowhead Sporting Goods LLC

T-REX Muzzle Brake from LRCustoms

Security Check Required Jeff is only on FB under Bestill Creations.

 

[Ndbowhunter]

Thank you for the responses. Form 4473 is a non starter for my father in law, so the Rem 700 is out of the question. Many of the the customs don't actually build actions, so that's tough. The Knight and the TC seem to be very good rigs, but it seems like its a chevy truck versus a Porsche. Maybe thats just my perception, but everything else GW touches seems to work, time and time again without the customization that seems to be a killer in the backcountry.

Dude if your father in-law can't buy a firearm but can afford an 8k muzzleloader I think ur slumming with the wrong crowd.

Heaps of folks can write a check for 8k no problem.. and to be fair I don't want 4 2k muzzleloaders or 8 1k muzzleloaders. What we want is the tool to do what it's supposed to do.

 

[sika64]

Would a conversion like this work on a Savage action? I have a Savage 114 American Classic in .325 WSM that I won at a banquet, I have zero plans on using it for anything. I was leaning towards putting a .270 WSM barrel on it, but a 500 yard muzzleloader would come in very handy for my needs as of late.

I have seen them built on the Savage action, I know that Jeff at Bestill has not done a Savage. But I believe That Hankins and DSS has.

 

[ENCORE]

Jeff (Bestill Creations) has announced that he's cutting back on .... some ….. builds and work.

Jeff currently has my BP Xpress that he will be converting to a precision long range and accurate, 2 in 1 rifle.

Here's a video on FB....

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2176622905937187

 

[5MilesBack]

You know, I had a new unused T/C Omega in my safe for 10 years that I paid $250 for, and I was applying for elk tags for my daughter for 6 years. After all the internet reading I did, I was convinced that the year she drew a tag I needed to buy a Knight Ultralite for her to use because of all the problems the T/C's have with conicals etc. So that was the plan........until we got a call the week before the 2017 season and the CDOW offered her a tag that someone turned back in.

Well, at that point you use what you got, so she used the Omega. And you know what, it worked just fine. She shot a couple different 2" groups at 100 with open sights, so figured she was ready. And then I called a bull in for her to 30 yards and she shot it the second day of the season. It wouldn't have mattered what ML she used, or how much it cost.........the result would have been the same.

For Colorado ML right in the middle of the rut, if you're shooting much past 100 yards.....you're probably hunting the wrong season. But if you want to spend $8k on a ML.......go for it.

 

[cjparry2]

I'd look for a SS Remington 700 S/A .308 bolt, or purchase a Remington Ultimate Muzzleloader on sale and use its action and maybe even the stock. I'd send the rifle or action off to one of the many builders, such as: LR Customs, ASG, Bestill Creations, or Hanken's custom. My most likely choice would be the proven .45cal Brux 1:20 barrel, maybe the 1:18 twist, or if I so chose to go 40cal. a Rock Creek. Again, it would most likely be the .45cal Brux. The rifle would end up with the ASG Gen2 breech plug and modules, along with LR Customs T-Rex muzzle brake. I'd have my current 15moa mount, rings and Nightforce NXS system atop it. In my case, I'd use my current McMillan Game Warden stock. When the rifle was completed by any of the builders, it would be bedded, trued, top quality built, a 2 in1 rifle and as accurate as most can shoot a CF.

These rifles are not cheap, but they're no where near $8K, even with the top glass on top them. For $8k, I'd own two customs, one a .45 and the other a .401 and still have enough money for the best glass available to top them with. These rifles are ….. capable …. of shooting either smokeless propellant, or BH209. BH209 velocities of 2,400fps using 300gr bullets.

Here's an example of the long range accuracy of a custom built rifle, which happens to be a .40 shooting smokeless:
View attachment 83660

If my hunting required at minimum a .50cal bullet, then the choice would be either the RUM or BP Xpress. I'd have the ASG Gen2 breech plug installed and shoot BH209 and Fury bullets at over 2,300fps.

Even the Ultimate Firearms Inc., BP Xpress, which is what I currently shoot. Again, install the ASG Gen2 breech plug and shoot BH209 and 300gr bullets in a sabot, at 2,400fps. A very accurate rifle, which I've shot 5 shot groups at 400yds of 1.5" and a 3 shot group at 500yds, witness and signed, of 1.873". But that's me.

View attachment 83661

Not attempting to say in any way that the Gunwerk rifle isn't a good rifle and/or capable of long range. What I am saying is, for me, I wouldn't go that route and would go with one of the custom builders.

Hi ENCORE,

Love your comments. I am knee deep in trying to figure out a western big game, bolt action muzzleloader order for myself. This thread has provided me with lots of insight. Admittedly, I don't have any hands on experience with long range, bolt action muzzleloaders (all my knowledge comes from talking to others and researched done online). That said, I wanted to find out if you can provide your thoughts about a few questions.

First, (I know I would ultimately check each states regs on this) can you provide an example of when I would want to use smokeless powder in my muzzleloader as a western big game hunter? I talked to someone that used smokeless powder in their muzzleloader on a hunt in Utah during an "any weapon" hunt. Other than increasing the difficulty/challenge of the hunt, I can't think of why someone would want that option.

Second, have you done any research on the ASG (Arrowhead Sporting Goods) Gen2 breech plug verses the Hank's Precision Gun Parts ASG Gen2 Replacement Plug with Hankin's Ignition Starter Modules? See the video link below where Jeff Hankin's talks about the design flaws of the ASG Gen2 breech plug. According to Jeff's video he is indicating that the ASG Gen2 breech plug blows out the primer module. Do you have any first hand knowledge of this problem?

Thank you for your insight.

cjparry2

 

[ENCORE]

Hi ENCORE,

Love your comments. I am knee deep in trying to figure out a western big game, bolt action muzzleloader order for myself. This thread has provided me with lots of insight. Admittedly, I don't have any hands on experience with long range, bolt action muzzleloaders (all my knowledge comes from talking to others and researched done online). That said, I wanted to find out if you can provide your thoughts about a few questions.

First, (I know I would ultimately check each states regs on this) can you provide an example of when I would want to use smokeless powder in my muzzleloader as a western big game hunter? I talked to someone that used smokeless powder in their muzzleloader on a hunt in Utah during an "any weapon" hunt. Other than increasing the difficulty/challenge of the hunt, I can't think of why someone would want that option.

Second, have you done any research on the ASG (Arrowhead Sporting Goods) Gen2 breech plug verses the Hank's Precision Gun Parts ASG Gen2 Replacement Plug with Hankin's Ignition Starter Modules? See the video link below where Jeff Hankin's talks about the design flaws of the ASG Gen2 breech plug. According to Jeff's video he is indicating that the ASG Gen2 breech plug blows out the primer module. Do you have any first hand knowledge of this problem?

Thank you for your insight.

cjparry2

I'd use smokeless for everything possible that the law/s allowed. I use smokeless in my state during the "general season", but have to use BH during the dedicated muzzleloader season.
These custom rifles are more accurate than most centerfire rifles in many cases. There's nothing in North America I wouldn't hunt with my rifle. I find it no more difficult than any other rifle. One shot, one kill, which comes from confidence.

I only use Arrowhead products. For more than one reason I need not get in to. There are no design flaws with the ASG plugs, as thousands of shooters will also tell you. I've shot over 15# of BH209 using 40 ASG modules and quite frankly, never cleaned a module. I don't personally know of anyone using an ASG plug that has had the primer module blown out.

If you're using BH, then you can use the brass modules. However, if you intend to shoot smokeless, then use the hardened modules. Works the same no matter who makes the modules. By the way, Hankins doesn't shoot or mess with BH209 at all to my knowledge.

Personally I will remain using ASG products and services.

This is just me, my opinion and others may differ greatly.

 

[cjparry2]

I'd use smokeless for everything possible that the law/s allowed. I use smokeless in my state during the "general season", but have to use BH during the dedicated muzzleloader season.
These custom rifles are more accurate than most centerfire rifles in many cases. There's nothing in North America I wouldn't hunt with my rifle. I find it no more difficult than any other rifle. One shot, one kill, which comes from confidence.

I only use Arrowhead products. For more than one reason I need not get in to. There are no design flaws with the ASG plugs, as thousands of shooters will also tell you. I've shot over 15# of BH209 using 40 ASG modules and quite frankly, never cleaned a module. I don't personally know of anyone using an ASG plug that has had the primer module blown out.

If you're using BH, then you can use the brass modules. However, if you intend to shoot smokeless, then use the hardened modules. Works the same no matter who makes the modules. By the way, Hankins doesn't shoot or mess with BH209 at all to my knowledge.

Personally I will remain using ASG products and services.

This is just me, my opinion and others may differ greatly.

ENCORE,

Thank you for your perspective. Totally value and appreciate your opinion.

cjparry2

 

[ENCORE]

ENCORE,

Thank you for your perspective. Totally value and appreciate your opinion.

cjparry2

You're welcome. Just remember, its only my personal opinion.

Here's my finished rifle:

 

[cjparry2]

You're welcome. Just remember, its only my personal opinion.

Here's my finished rifle:

View attachment 167722

HI ENCORE,

Thanks for your input. Your muzzleloader set looks great!!

I like the idea of no ramrod. Do you like your Nightforce optics and are you running a yardage, MOA or MIL turret? Looks like a long range set up. Any thoughts about open sites for states that don't allow scopes during the muzzleloader season?

Thanks,

cjparry2

 

[FrontierGander]

"These custom rifles are more accurate than most centerfire rifles in many cases.
I find it no more difficult than any other rifle. "

And here folks is the reason why some states do not allow the use of a scope. Kinda defeats the purpose of black powder hunting when you get all snazzy and are scoped, blasting animals with ease from far distances. In my book at least. Those 2 lines alone left a foul taste in my mouth. So much for a challenge.

 

[ENCORE]

"These custom rifles are more accurate than most centerfire rifles in many cases.
I find it no more difficult than any other rifle. "

And here folks is the reason why some states do not allow the use of a scope. Kinda defeats the purpose of black powder hunting when you get all snazzy and are scoped, blasting animals with ease from far distances. In my book at least. Those 2 lines alone left a foul taste in my mouth. So much for a challenge.

Well it just never ends does it?
You chose to get away from modern inline rifles so you could dress up and that's ok for you. However, every time someone wants to know more about long range muzzleloaders, some traditionalist always has to jump in and give his speech about how bad a modern inline is, and how wrong it is.
Ladies and gentlemen...…… THAT is the exact attitude that caused many problems at the NMLRA. Traditionalists vowing to drop their membership, in other words become a QUITTER, just because someone didn't follow the path they expected them to follow. They learned a hard lesson, now membership is rising again and with many new programs for modern inline rifles.
That type attitude is what's called NPD. Look it up.
Jon, why jump in a post about modern inline rifles, specifically custom rifles, and degrade what so many others really want with the traditionalist mentality? I thought you'd have gotten over that by now?????

NOTE: Just because someone owns a custom rifle that is capable of long range, does not mean that they can't hunt as a traditionalist hunts, wanting to get closer to game. Just because a rifle is SML capable, or capable of heavy charges of BH209, does not mean that same rifle can not be loaded down to traditional rifle charges.

 

[ENCORE]

HI ENCORE,

Thanks for your input. Your muzzleloader set looks great!!

I like the idea of no ramrod. Do you like your Nightforce optics and are you running a yardage, MOA or MIL turret? Looks like a long range set up. Any thoughts about open sites for states that don't allow scopes during the muzzleloader season?

Thanks,

cjparry2

The scope is the NXS 5.5-22x50 MOAR . I got really tired of breaking scopes, which is why I went with NF.
Yes, its a very capable long range rifle, with either BH209 or SML.
Any of the top custom rifle builders can and will install open sights for those who hunt in states with that requirement. I haven't shot much with open sights since getting older and my eye sight changing, just like most seniors.
They have rear peeps that can be mounted on Picatinny rails. You can use the open sights in those seasons that do not allow scopes and then just remove it and attach your scope where legal.

 

[FrontierGander]

Why?

"These custom rifles are more accurate than most centerfire rifles in many cases.
I find it no more difficult than any other rifle. "

Those 2 lines above are exactly the reason why folks argue about modern muzzleloading and that it is unfair to muzzleloading season.

I'd say you may as well use a centerfire, but according to the quote above, they are not as accurate.

As for me dressing up. Thats the traditional part of muzzleloading that i love. While im am playing dress up, hunting with a hawken and a round ball, I feel connected to what muzzleloading season is all about. Tradition. Not dressing up in camo, going out into the field with a scoped something and then driving up and down the roads all day on an atv or sitting inside a $65,000 truck, parked along the side of a field, watching it for something to stroll by.

Shooting at paper is one thing, shooting at big game with unknown wind conditions starting at the shooter, to, halfway to the target, to the full distance of the target, is another.

Just no longer makes sense to go muzzleloader hunting and completely defeat the purpose of the season, which was to relive the past and history of muzzleloading.

 

[ENCORE]

Why?

"These custom rifles are more accurate than most centerfire rifles in many cases.
I find it no more difficult than any other rifle. "

Those 2 lines above are exactly the reason why folks argue about modern muzzleloading and that it is unfair to muzzleloading season.

I'd say you may as well use a centerfire, but according to the quote above, they are not as accurate.

As for me dressing up. Thats the traditional part of muzzleloading that i love. While im am playing dress up, hunting with a hawken and a round ball, I feel connected to what muzzleloading season is all about. Tradition. Not dressing up in camo, going out into the field with a scoped something and then driving up and down the roads all day on an atv or sitting inside a $65,000 truck, parked along the side of a field, watching it for something to stroll by.

Shooting at paper is one thing, shooting at big game with unknown wind conditions starting at the shooter, to, halfway to the target, to the full distance of the target, is another.

Just no longer makes sense to go muzzleloader hunting and completely defeat the purpose of the season, which was to relive the past and history of muzzleloading.

If that's the way you feel, then its 100% correct for you. Keep doing that.

However...…....... its as I already mentioned...…… every time a post is started concerning modern inline rifles, and/or custom rifles...…… some "traditionalist" has to come along and state his/her opinion on why we are wrong. True NPD

Jon, it wasn't that long ago and yes I remember it well, that you were a total proponent of modern inline rifles. You would argue, debate, degrade and anything else, with anyone that disagreed with your beloved CVA rifles. That same conduct actually got you banned from a few web sites. You might want to be careful on this site. The administrators or moderators may not be so lenient with your digs...…...

So, you've now switched to be a "traditionalist". That's perfectly fine. I've had my share of traditional rifles and harvested my share of critters with them.

Why don't you just create your own thread complaining about modern muzzleloaders or customs? Its rude coming into another's post degrading what others may like, want, or use. Your ideas of how others may or may not hunt is way off base.

Please, do what you consider right for yourself, but let others decide what's right for themselves and not bash them about it, their equipment, or methods of hunting.

Don't you have your own web site to discuss that??? Something called Frontier Muzzleloader?? I believe there's also some long range shooters on your site too!