Helical on micro diameter shafts?

[Gioc1]

How much helical is to much on a micro diameter? I shoot VAP TKO'S 350's. I was told by someone that a 3° helical is way to extreme and crap out after 40 yards. Is this something anyone has experienced?

 

[OR Archer]

I shoot about a 3* on my arrows. Doesn’t crap out at 40 lol. I have zero issues shooting past 100 with my setup. The amount of helical you can get will depend on how long the vane is and how you have your jig set up. As long as you can get the base of the vane to seat on the shaft properly at what degree you want then you can use it.

 

[wa_archer]

I wouldnt say im too micro but the guys at shoots I have seen with micro are mainly going 4 fletch and not much if any helical.

 

[WakePraySlay]

I wouldn’t go past 3 degrees. Like stated before the most important thing is getting the foot of the vane to fully set on the shaft making complete contact

 

[CodeMonkey]

I'm currently having issues (whistling noise, but great groups) with an aggressive helical on a micro diameter shaft: https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/arrow-noise-w-field-tips.217927/

Most likely culprit right now is the vane configuration (air getting between the base of the vane and shaft). If I can't figure this out in the next two weeks, my next choice would be a four fletch with Bohning Heat vanes, straight clamp, and a 2 degree offset.

 

[Arctic Hunter]

I have no idea how much helical I put on my micros. I just make sure I offset it and still have good adhesion down the length of the vane and use a helical clamp. Seems to work fine. I did find that 3 fletch seemed to do a little better than four on my current set up.

I believe parachute effect is a thing, but sometimes I wonder when there are guys who can make those true helical jigs work for them.

 

[Slugz]

There's a pretty good article somewhere on the interweb that discusses in aerodynamic terms that I will try and paraphrase below.

Velocity of some of these arrows are getting so fast and aerodynamically speaking( drag) so small, that in the majority of instances helical isn't needed to make it aerodynamically stable for consistent flight.
Three or four straight vanes of the correct length will do it and keep speed up for a longer distance.

Before someone asks, I don't know what correct length is needed, but I can assume its based somehow upon diameter, length of arrow, overall drag ( parasitic and induced calculations) and velocity.

PS. I'm not an aero engineer but I have some time in fast moving things, most though not at sea level

 

[Zac]

I'm currently having issues (whistling noise, but great groups) with an aggressive helical on a micro diameter shaft: https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/arrow-noise-w-field-tips.217927/

Most likely culprit right now is the vane configuration (air getting between the base of the vane and shaft). If I can't figure this out in the next two weeks, my next choice would be a four fletch with Bohning Heat vanes, straight clamp, and a 2 degree offset.

4 fletch will be even louder. Cody Greenwood found that the helical configuration is the culprit for noise. This can be corrected with a simple offset. However adding a vane no matter the offset or helical will always be noisier.

 

[xFREDx]

You can put as much as will fit on the arrow. I run some but not a lot. I personally don't think you need much. offset of small amount of helical should tune up just fine.

 

[7-Pointers]

Probably no one cares anymore (a month later), but just in case, I'll share this table put together for other purposes showing the actual angle you get when you use any available jig to fletch skinny arrows at a supposedly 3 degree angle. The takeaway is that because of the way these jigs handle skinny shafts, all of them will put less than 3 degrees of angle on any arrow with a less than "standard" diameter (~0.300") shaft. That said, a 2 degree helical on a 0.200" outer diameter arrow will behave almost exactly like a 3 degree helical on a standard diameter shaft in terms of rotations per yard and will be within 10% of the same drag.

If you ever did put a true 3 degree fletch angle on a nano diameter shaft it would behave more like a 4.5 degree helical would on a standard diameter shaft (not shown in this table, happy to geek out if interested). By most internet "studies", that would be overkill.

 

[buggz]

Want precise helix using a Bitzenburger setup?
Try these adapters, they are freakin' great!

WTS - Adapter for Helical Fletching at Any Angle With Straight Bitzenberger Jig

I recently got frustrated with the lack of any 3 degree left helical fletching jig, so I made this set of adapters for my Bitzenberger Straight jig that enables perfectly accurate fletching at any specific degree of right or left angle, from 3 degree helical to completely straight. The set...

www.rokslide.com

 

[Page Master]

4 fletch will be even louder. Cody Greenwood found that the helical configuration is the culprit for noise. This can be corrected with a simple offset. However adding a vane no matter the offset or helical will always be noisier.

I haven't noticed my 4F being louder than any 3F. I set em straight with a right wing clamp. My pepsi test people say they're noticeably quieter than any 3's.

 

[Zac]

I haven't noticed my 4F being louder than any 3F. I set em straight with a right wing clamp. My pepsi test people say they're noticeably quieter than any 3's.

I'm just going off of the tests performed by Kyle at DC and John Stallone's test at AAE. Both of them reported the loudest 3 fletch configs were still quieter than the quietest 4s. I think the benefits of 4 fletch outweigh 3s anyway. The testing done on animals reaction is subjective at best. Alot of killers out there getting it done with 4 fletch. I always say it's better to have a poop your pants shaft that's a little louder, then some tiny vane that isn't going to correct when the bow is torqued.

 

[Page Master]

I'm just going off of the tests performed by Kyle at DC and John Stallone's test at AAE. Both of them reported the loudest 3 fletch configs were still quieter than the quietest 4s. I think the benefits of 4 fletch outweigh 3s anyway. The testing done on animals reaction is subjective at best. Alot of killers out there getting it done with 4 fletch. I always say it's better to have a poop your pants shaft that's a little louder, then some tiny vane that isn't going to correct when the bow is torqued.

When we have league, we'll stand parallel to the targets about 20-25 yards away (10-15' elevated above) sometimes and get to listen to the arrows coming screaming down range. I can always tell who is shooting 3 blazers or the TACS. I wonder how they tested the configurations. If you have 3 loud vanes, and add another it will obviously be louder. I find it hard to believe 3 blazers is quieter than 4 Gas pro or Pine Ridge Nitro 2.2.

I'll need to go watch this video.

Regardless I agree. Forgiveness is key.

 

[Zac]

When we have league, we'll stand parallel to the targets about 20-25 yards away (10-15' elevated above) sometimes and get to listen to the arrows coming screaming down range. I can always tell who is shooting 3 blazers or the TACS. I wonder how they tested the configurations. If you have 3 loud vanes, and add another it will obviously be louder. I find it hard to believe 3 blazers is quieter than 4 Gas pro or Pine Ridge Nitro 2.2.

I'll need to go watch this video.

Regardless I agree. Forgiveness is key.

This is why I think the noise issue is ridiculous. What people hear and what high tech machines produce can be totally different. Interesting that the TACs sound loud. I thought those were supposed to be very quiet.

 

[Page Master]

This is why I think the noise issue is ridiculous. What people hear and what high tech machines produce can be totally different. Interesting that the TACs sound loud. I thought those were supposed to be very quiet.

I think it depends on your arrow set up. Lot of these guys are shooting 310fps+. I noticed even shooting them sub 290fps they had a hiss. Mostly the Drivers.

 

[Duerrr]

Probably no one cares anymore (a month later), but just in case, I'll share this table put together for other purposes showing the actual angle you get when you use any available jig to fletch skinny arrows at a supposedly 3 degree angle. The takeaway is that because of the way these jigs handle skinny shafts, all of them will put less than 3 degrees of angle on any arrow with a less than "standard" diameter (~0.300") shaft. That said, a 2 degree helical on a 0.200" outer diameter arrow will behave almost exactly like a 3 degree helical on a standard diameter shaft in terms of rotations per yard and will be within 10% of the same drag.

If you ever did put a true 3 degree fletch angle on a nano diameter shaft it would behave more like a 4.5 degree helical would on a standard diameter shaft (not shown in this table, happy to geek out if interested). By most internet "studies", that would be overkill.

Probably no one cares anymore (a month later), but just in case, I'll share this table put together for other purposes showing the actual angle you get when you use any available jig to fletch skinny arrows at a supposedly 3 degree angle. The takeaway is that because of the way these jigs handle skinny shafts, all of them will put less than 3 degrees of angle on any arrow with a less than "standard" diameter (~0.300") shaft. That said, a 2 degree helical on a 0.200" outer diameter arrow will behave almost exactly like a 3 degree helical on a standard diameter shaft in terms of rotations per yard and will be within 10% of the same drag.

If you ever did put a true 3 degree fletch angle on a nano diameter shaft it would behave more like a 4.5 degree helical would on a standard diameter shaft (not shown in this table, happy to geek out if interested). By most internet "studies", that would be overkill.

View attachment 298161

Thanks for the info. Deeper down the rabbit hole I go.

 

[Moose22]

New member here, but long time reader. Couple questions about micro diameter shafts and 3” feathers. I want to put helical twist on the feathers and was wondering what degree I should do? Also what jig would be able to accomplish this? My arrows turn left out of my bow if that helps at all.