Help me select my first Elk/Moose/Bear rifle.

[hodgeman]

Nothing wrong with a new rifle, but a .270 is completely adequate for elk, or moose for that matter. Use a good bullet.

The 270's reputation as inadequate is from the ye olde days of bad bullets and the only way to control expansion at higher speed was to just use a bigger one. The early 130gr bullets wouldn't stand up to the speeds the 270 is capable of. Modern controlled expansion bullets don't have that problem at all. While I love the 300s, a 270 has never left me hanging either.

My moose and caribou load in the 270 is a 145 ELDX or 150 Nosler Accubond at 2900 fps. I'd use either on elk with zero reservations.

 

[ORfish]

I an happy to see many relying with the exact same opinion. A 300 WM is a harder hitter, and if you want a second gun. Go for it! Otherwise, spend your tine and money on premium. 270 bullets and practice and you'll do just fine. Again. I'm a fan of Barnes copper bullets for weight retention and non- toxic (and California legal).

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[rkcdvm]

I use a 300 win mag and 28 nos.
However, as mentioned above with the 300wsm... there is tons of ammo on the shelves around here for that and only that . Just a thought .

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

Energy numbers are useless. They shouldn't be included in any discussion. Anyone who does shows their inexperience and lack of knowledge.

There is not bullet made that has enough energy to "knock down" and elk. It is 100% about placement, bullet construction and impact velocity.

There is no way in hell that a bad shot with a .300 Win Mag is more effective than the same bad shot with a .223.

Umm what??
Energy definitely makes a difference, as does bullet weight
Shoot an elk in the shoulder with a 55 grain bullet from a 223 and see what happens.. I guaran damn tee you it'll be a different outcome with a 200 grain bullet from a 300 wm.

 

[EmperorMA]

Umm what??
Energy definitely makes a difference, as does bullet weight
Shoot an elk in the shoulder with a 55 grain bullet from a 223 and see what happens.. I guaran damn tee you it'll be a different outcome with a 200 grain bullet from a 300 wm.

Comparing a cartridge/bullet combination like the .300 Win Mag that was designed with killing game animals as its number one priority to a cartridge/bullet combo like a .223 that was designed solely for the purpose of wounding human beings is an exercise in folly and clearly the work of the inexperienced.

If you had ever done it, you’d know that a 100gr TTSX fired from a .25-‘06 would do just as well or better in an elk shoulder than your hypothetical 200gr bullet from a .300 Win Mag.

But, to be fair, if you haven’t done it, you couldn’t know. “Energy” is such an antiquated term and has pretty much nothing to do with today’s reality.

 

[woods89]

Umm what??
Energy definitely makes a difference, as does bullet weight
Shoot an elk in the shoulder with a 55 grain bullet from a 223 and see what happens.. I guaran damn tee you it'll be a different outcome with a 200 grain bullet from a 300 wm.

There's an impressively shattered moose shoulder bone in the .223 thread. 77 gr bullet, though.........

 

[Squincher]

Funny you mention Jack O'Conner. My .270 is a Jack O'Conner Tribute.

All .270's are Jack O'Connor tributes.

 

[Squincher]

I think I'm more confused than before I started this thread lol.

That's why God made the .30-06, so you could just go buy one rifle and never have to be confused if there is a better choice.

 

[woods89]

I think I'm more confused than before I started this thread lol.

My advice would be that the cost of a new rifle and scope will buy you a lot of ammo for your 270. If you pop 500 primers with a focus on field shooting you will be much more prepared to shoot an elk then buying a bigger rifle.

 

[ORfish]

What is being discussed by some cordially, and some not, is that there are differences in how much power you are hitting the elk with by using different calibers and bullet weighs and compositions. It seems everyone agrees that a 200 yard broadside shot with a .270 is an ethical shot. With that situation, a 300WM will not make the Elke "more dead" - although it might drop the Elk quicker.

We can look at the Taylor Knockout formula. (Bullet wt (gr) x vel (fps) x bullet dia.)/7000. I put his in for EmperorMA and his anti-energy rants. Rather than using energy, as it factors in bullet mass, velocity, and diameter to give an idea of how much "knockdown" power the round has. A standard .270 Winchester rifle cartridge130 gr x 3100fps x .277 divided by 7000 = 111631 div. by 7000 equals TKO value 16, while a 300WM with 200ga.bullet. 3100fps. TKO value 27.

A more modern version of the TKO is the Killing Power Score
Energy (in foot pounds) x Sectional Density (taken from reloading manuals) x cross-sectional Area (in square inches) = Killing Power Score. (Round off to one decimal place for convenience.) E x SD x A = KPS
.270 Winchester (130 grain at 3150 fps) - 35.0
.300 Winchester Magnum (180 grain at 2960 fps) - 59.5

But, as Chuck Hawks points out, "The most important factor in killing power, by far, is bullet placement. The second most important factor is probably bullet terminal performance. The third most important factor is probably the physical and mental state of the game animal in question at the moment it is shot."

 

[HiMtnHntr]

As mentioned several times, the 270 is just fine. If you just want a new rifle in a bigger caliber that is just fine too. If you are set on a Tikka I would look hard at the 300 wsm for it's potential weight savings. Either one will thump you a lot harder than the 270. As a wise man once said - you can't kill em too dead.

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

Comparing a cartridge/bullet combination like the .300 Win Mag that was designed with killing game animals as its number one priority to a cartridge/bullet combo like a .223 that was designed solely for the purpose of wounding human beings is an exercise in folly and clearly the work of the inexperienced.

If you had ever done it, you’d know that a 100gr TTSX fired from a .25-‘06 would do just as well or better in an elk shoulder than your hypothetical 200gr bullet from a .300 Win Mag.

But, to be fair, if you haven’t done it, you couldn’t know. “Energy” is such an antiquated term and has pretty much nothing to do with today’s reality.

Dude read your own post
You made the comparison of a 223 and a 300wm
I simply pointed out that it was a crazy statement, just like saying energy has no bearing on killing effectively.

 

[BASSFAN07]

I had a 280. Just picked up a 300win mag to be the type gun your are talking about wanting. Will the 270 work? Yes, but who doesn’t want a new rifle.

I was getting sucked into the idea of a 300prc. I ended up finding a screamer of a deal locally on a Ruger m77 mII that was all but new and 1/2 the price of a brand new rifle I was looking.

Hope you find what you’re looking.


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[Montana Craig]

When I was looking for a new rifle this past year for hunting everything in Montana. I started out thinking I wanted something similar to a 300 win mag with less recoil. I knew the 6.5 PRC was the bee's knees from reading Rokslide and watching Ryan's videos but going to my local stores there would rarely be over 1 box of ammo on the shelf. That's when I was set on the 7mm rem mag, less recoil than the 300 and more common than the PRC.

After waiting far too long to buy one I was talking with a friend in AK. We were talking about hunting and that I was looking to get a new rifle. He said I just use a 270 win, on sheep, caribou, and even moose, I was taken back I thought everyone in AK would use a big magnum. The 270 hadn't crossed my mind yet and after comparing tons of ballistic data I realized the energy didn't seem to matter until you are out further than I ever plan on taking an animal. I jumped on the Tikka bandwagon and bought a stainless T3X lite in 270 win.

Get a new gun if you want but your 270 will do the job.

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[raferalston]

Do y’all think the recoil difference between the 30.06 and the 300 win mag would be substantial? I’ve pretty much narrowed it down to these two. I dont see myself taking shots past the point blank range.

 

[ORfish]

Cartridge (Wb@MV)

Rifle Weight

Recoil energy

Recoil velocity

.270 Win. (120 at 2675)	8.0	10.0	9.0
.270 Win. (130 at 3140)	8.0	16.5	n/a
.270 Win. (140 at 3000)	8.0	17.1	11.7
.270 Win. (150 at 2900)	8.0	17.0	11.7

.30-06 Spfd. (125 at 2660)	8.0	10.2	n/a
.30-06 Spfd. (150 at 2910)	8.0	17.6	11.9
.30-06 Spfd. (165 at 2900)	8.0	20.1	12.7
.30-06 Spfd. (180 at 2700)	8.0	20.3	12.8

300 Win. Mag. (150 at 3320)	8.5	23.5	13.3
.300 Win. Mag. (165 at 3110)	8.0	26.2	14.5
.300 Win. Mag. (180 at 2960)	8.5	25.9	14.0

While recoil energy determines how hard the blow to the shoulder feels, recoil velocity determines how abrupt the blow to the shoulder feels. My subjective impression is that, with a well designed stock, recoil velocity above about 10 fps begins to feel like a sharp rap on the shoulder rather than an abrupt push.

In 1909, the British Textbook of Small Arms stated that 15 ft. lbs. of free recoil energy was the maximum allowable for a military service rifle. (The standard British .303 Lee-Enfield infantry rifle was below that figure, as are most service rifles to this day. This should tell you something.) The 1929 edition of the same textbook stated, in addition, that recoil velocity should not exceed 15 fps; above that velocity a gun-headache was very likely to occur. These figures remain practical maximums for the modern hunter.

All from Chuck Hawks

 

[bsnedeker]

Do y’all think the recoil difference between the 30.06 and the 300 win mag would be substantial? I’ve pretty much narrowed it down to these two. I dont see myself taking shots past the point blank range.

At point-blank ranges it doesn't matter. I've never felt recoil when I'm hunting anyway. I feel it at the range. I have a 300 WM and I just use one of those recoil shields from Caldwell that I use at the range when I'm shooting that rifle. It helps me shoot longer and keeps me from developing a flinch.

 

[tim tarras]

Do y’all think the recoil difference between the 30.06 and the 300 win mag would be substantial? I’ve pretty much narrowed it down to these two. I dont see myself taking shots past the point blank range.

I have a 1967 Remington BDL 30-06 with just a but plate. I was thinking of going to a 300 Win mag and I borrowed one to try. That 300 had more recoil with a recoil pad than that 06 ever had. After 2 shots I knew I would not be as good of a shot with it and returned it. I never regretted the decision.

 

[blackhawkip]

Like you, I personally ran a 270 for years. I then went to my 30-06 with great success. I took the leap to a 300wm as I've gotten more into elk in open country and wanted the extra knock down at further ranges out to 500 yards.
Taken two elk with it in the last two years. One at 185 yards and the other at 375.

 

[PNWGATOR]

Energy has no bearing on killing effectively.

Your money would be best spent on a training rifle, cases of ammunition and learning to be a rifleman.

Your 270 will not be the limiting factor in your ability to kill.