Help w/ bull in NM

[Bugelinelk]

My dad and I drew a bull elk tag in NM this year. He is approachin 80 y/o and this is my first elk hunt. He has taken elk in CO but never NM. This will probably be our last hunt together in his lifetime. Along with the memories and stories, I would like him to be successful in filling his tag.
We are hunting second season muzzleloader with a Traditions Buckstalker. We have settled on 80gr of Blackhorn 209 with Barnes 290gr hollow points. The scope is a 3-9x40mm. We have scouted and planned three seperate areas that have bulls.
The problem...we have tried sighting the rifle in at the range and can't get a consistent group at 100yds. They hit either high, high right, or high left. Three days shooting yield three different results. We tried a dirty barrel, a spotless barrel and cleaning after every shot..
The high aspect of the groupings is fine. I can even settle knowing the left or right is off. What I don't understand is why we aren't consistent day to day.
Season opens on Saturday and I know this forum has some great advice. Please HEEEELP!!!!

 

[Marble]

I would find a black powder forum and ask.

I know when I used to shoot black powder, owerr charge and type of powder made a huge difference.

 

[Marble]

I would find a black powder forum and ask.

I know when I used to shoot black powder, owerr charge and type of powder made a huge difference.

 

[CorbLand]

Muzzleloaders are finicky and it takes a fair amount of time to get them dialed in. Try different powder loads. Load in 5 grain increments, see if that helps. Try different bullets.

I played with a muzzleloader for 2 years and never could get it to shoot well. Put it in the closet, bought a whole new setup and had it going out to 300 yards in 25 shots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[264win]

It is very possibly your scope/ mount. Try a different scope and check every to make sure there is no play/wiggle anywhere.

 

[Jsunkler]

It is very possibly your scope/ mount. Try a different scope and check every to make sure there is no play/wiggle anywhere.

^ This is where I would start. If everything is rock solid, move to looking over the weapon (any portion of the stock touching the barrel, loose screws on the weapon, clogged breech, loose breach,), then move to your load itself.

On one occasion I almost saw a very accurate rifle be sold due its scope malfunctioning, the owner was getting all sorts of groupings and couldnt figure it out. Once the scope was replaced, the rifle shot sub-MOA like it always had.

 

[KHNC]

Why 80gr? have you tried 100gr loads? ML's are already a handicap , why not boost it up some? I shoot 100gr of Triple 7 with 240 Sabot Hornady XTP out of my TC Omega. I have also had great luck with this load in 3 other ML's as well. Assuming that setup is legal in NM. BH is great powder but why not try a heavier load?

 

[brownie9582]

I would bet that your scope and mounts are not holding everything in place correctly, You cannot use cheap rings with the magnum muzzloaders, if already have a quality set then you probably have something loose. Look for small scuffing or scratches on the scope tube, even if it feels rock solid I would put my money on that being the issue.

The other thing I can think of is make sure you are loading the barnes bullets with the appropriate jag that does not mark or mess up the tip of the bullet. If you are deforming that plastic tip upon pushing down the barrel with the ramrod then they will not fly true to the target.

I run the same powder (using 110 grains though) and a barnes 290g and can shoot a 2" group at 250 yards. So that setup will definitely perform.

I hope you get it figured out and get out there to get one of those awesome NM bulls! I hunted in unit 23 last year, but couldn't quite seal the deal after a couple close calls.

 

[cgasner1]

We scrub the hell out them then dump about 50 grains down the barrel no bullet and torch it makes sure the gun will fire and you don’t have cleaning chemicals in there and they always seem to throw flyers on a clean barrel highly advise you do that before your hunt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[trophyhill]

My buddies hunt with a muzzy. Both primitive and modern weapons. I've accompanied them on many hunts for deer and a few elk. They've tried talking me into going to muzzy hunting. The number of misses I've seen makes it easy to tell them "not only no, but hell no". I used to rifle hunt with them and know they can both shoot, so it's not the shooter. They have killed their fair share but way too inconsistent to talk me into it

 

[Bugelinelk]

Update/response....

Thanks so far, really appreciate the tips and here is how today went.

We put the gun in a vice today and looked over the scope. Nothing felt loose and tried tightening base/rings screws. None of them moved. Looked at exterior of scope and no obvious markings, dings or dents.

I cleaned the crap out of every part of the gun. Followed Traditions videos on dissasembly, cleaning and reassembly. The breach had a ton of fouling in it. I'm hoping that was the culprit. The sponges I pass through now are 100% clean.

Double checked all the screws on the gun and everything seemed ok.

I am using the recommended alignment part from Barnes for the bullets.

I am firing 80gr because I was scoped three times at 110gr with a Knight ML. Call me a *ussy, but now I'm nervous to jump that high sighting it in. May go to 100 day of hunt but not sure yet.

Couple questions..
1)Loading powder without a bullet and burning that, just do that the day of the hunt or even when sighting? Will leftover cleaning chemical throw off the trajectory?
2) Why jump by 5 gr increments? What will that accomplish?

Tomorrow we are going shooting to test it again. Hopefully it will go better.

We scouted today and ran across 2 5x5s. I was able to call one to 45 yards away and stil manage to escape without spooking either of them. Hopefully they will be there Saturday.

Thanks again

 

[Moe81]

If you plan on using 100 grain on the day of the hunt then you need to sight it in with 100 grains of powder. Point of impact will be different with 80 vs 100.
Maybe try a different brand of bullets. See if they group better. But like most have said already, I bet it's your scope.
Did you buy it as a muzzleloader/scope combo?
Also.. what unit you guys hunting?

 

[Cahunter805]

Lots of good advice. Try 100-110gr assuming your measuring by volume.
Have you cleaned the breech plug? Have you cleaned the primer channel with a tip cleaner and drill bit? BH209 is a great powder but builds up in the breech plug.

 

[Wapiti1]

Here is my advice to add to others. They are finicky.

Load in a muzzleloader has to be tuned to the specific rifle just like a smokeless center fire rifle. An 80gr load may not be stabilizing the bullet adequately. Black powder, and its substitutes, are low power comparatively, and 5 gr increments is typical. Although I usually use 10 grain increments because I am lazy.

Sabot fit is important. You should NOT have to ram it down with a hammer, but you should also not be able to push it down with one finger. A decent fit is a sabot that slides down with moderate pressure on the rod in a clean barrel. BH 209 doesn't foul badly, so you should be OK with 3 shots and swab as a regimen.

Heat kills accuracy!! Your barrel must be cool to the touch for best accuracy. Sabots are plastic, and they soften with heat. Soft sabots cannot impart consistent spin to a bullet. If the outside of the barrel is warm, just think how much warmer the inside is after each shot.

In my two muzzleloaders, I swab after every 3rd shot using BH209 and don't completely clean it for the season. That has given me very consistent accuracy. Both of mine will produce 4" groups at 300 yards. Neither shoots the same sabot/bullet combo. My Savage loves MMP black sabots with Parker 300gr bullets seated over 110-120 grains of BH209. My TC works best with Hornady SST 300 grain bullets in their packaged sabot over 120gr BH209. Higher or lower and they fall apart instantly. I also tried many bullets and these ended up being the best combinations.

I would suggest two things. Switch bullet/sabots to a couple of other options in 300 grain size, and work the load up in 5-10 grain increments. Barnes needs to spin fast to stabilize (they are long for size), and 80gr may not be getting them to spin fast enough.

I have taken several elk with the above two bullets. They work fine, just stay off the shoulder bone.

Jeremy

 

[brownie9582]

I will echo the above sabot fit and a cool barrel is very important. It should take some decent pressure to move the sabot down the barrel, from my experience the barnes sabots fit very well.. so I doubt that is your issue.

The next is going to be a cool barrel, it takes a long time for the barrel to cool. If it is still warm to the touch it is not time to shoot the next round.

Also shoot the grains you plan on hunting with, trajectory even at 50 to 100 yards could be substantially different depending on the load.

Good luck and hopefully you can call one to 45 yards and then an inch or two won't make much difference!

 

[Fridaythe13th]

Is it a Nikon scope. A buddy of mine has returned 2 to the factory in 1 year with the same problem. He put a vortex crossfire on and now has a 2" group buy changing nothing but the scope. Dont get me wrong I like Nikon, great glass, wondering if that had a bad batch.

 

[PAhunter58]

I agree with Wapiti1. Go higher with Barnes. I found personally my CVA Accura MR needed 110 grain by volume shooting 290 Barnes TEZ. 90 was awful groupings, 100 only slightly better. 110 gr got me 3 1/2" groups out to 300yds.

 

[CorbLand]

Update/response....

Thanks so far, really appreciate the tips and here is how today went.

We put the gun in a vice today and looked over the scope. Nothing felt loose and tried tightening base/rings screws. None of them moved. Looked at exterior of scope and no obvious markings, dings or dents.

I cleaned the crap out of every part of the gun. Followed Traditions videos on dissasembly, cleaning and reassembly. The breach had a ton of fouling in it. I'm hoping that was the culprit. The sponges I pass through now are 100% clean.

Double checked all the screws on the gun and everything seemed ok.

I am using the recommended alignment part from Barnes for the bullets.

I am firing 80gr because I was scoped three times at 110gr with a Knight ML. Call me a *ussy, but now I'm nervous to jump that high sighting it in. May go to 100 day of hunt but not sure yet.

Couple questions..
1)Loading powder without a bullet and burning that, just do that the day of the hunt or even when sighting? Will leftover cleaning chemical throw off the trajectory?
2) Why jump by 5 gr increments? What will that accomplish?

Tomorrow we are going shooting to test it again. Hopefully it will go better.

We scouted today and ran across 2 5x5s. I was able to call one to 45 yards away and stil manage to escape without spooking either of them. Hopefully they will be there Saturday.

Thanks again

I would suggest doing everything the exact same when sighting in as you will when you hunt. Muzzleloaders are finicky. I have seen them lose all accuracy by something as "simple" as a different primer. I do a fouling shot as my guns shot better with one. When I was sighting it in I did a fouling shot then a 3 shot group. I would clean the gun, do a fouling shot and shot another group with a different bullet. I did this and found the two that shot the best. Then I played with the amount of powder on these two bullets to see which one shot the best.

My gun likes 300 grain SST, with 100 grains of Blackhorn and a CCI 209M primer. I tried 250 and 300 grain SST. 305 grain Berrys and 295 grain Powerbelts. All of these were suggestions from people that have the exact same gun as I do. With the load that I have now I can shot 2.5 groups out to 300 yards.

5 grain increments gives you a good base line to work off of. You could do 10 if you want, I did that when I was first trying to get one dialed. More powder is going to push it faster and some bullets need more push to stabilize.

I spent two years playing with everything imaginable and never could find a load my first gun liked. I blame that gun for my addiction to the F word. It was the most frustrating thing I have ever done. Sometimes you hit a load it likes quick, sometimes not so much.

 

[OKL]

My favorite way to elk hunt is with black powder. I have had very good luck with Hodgdon Triple 7 pellets. They are 50 grains each, I use 2 pellets with 300 grain Hornady’s. The preformed pellets seem to be very consistent to me as long as they are kept dry. I generally clean after 3 shots. Not sure if this helps you or not but it works for me. Good luck on your hunt.

 

[Bugelinelk]

Well, sighting was a challenge..but fun. Thanks for all the help. Ended up having a 3 inch group high left at 100 yards.

Went out yesterday, opening day , and got into them right away. He's a bit beat up but we got the job done!