Help with a pointer

[blake_mhoona]

I've got a 1.5 year old GSP and due to basically no birds in our area most of our time is spent running NSTRA trials. He's been doing really well and we got our first amateur win this past weekend (total of 6 amateur points altogether). I've never been an upland guy, in fact I dont think i've ever seen a quail in real life until we started training. I sent him off to the trainer for when he was 6 months old and he did a fine job and gave me the right tools to continue his training. i have a background in training retrievers so some "concepts" carried over on dog behavior and attitude.

the only thing i've run into is 1 out of 10 or 15 or so points is a false point (usually a kill site or plant site from a previous brace once it was a rat lol). and in my mind i've come to recognize when i think he's false pointing (flagging his tail or looking around). i'll kick around and then release him.

my issue is when i release him he hunkers down and tries to dig out or flush the bird himself. wouldn't normally be a problem except the last two times he's done it in a trial there ended up being a bird there. the first he flushed and the second he actually caught the bird.

what i want him to do when i release him is to hunt the area again and relocate and go back on point if there's an actual bird there. Instead he gets down low to the ground and roots around. how would you teach the former in a training scenario and how do you discourage the latter in a training scenario? seems like it would be hard to simulate that scenario where he needs to relocate?

 

[jmez]

That is bad when a pointer catches a bird on the ground that he's pointed. The fun with pen raised birds. Since he's caught a bird like that and flushed another he's likely to keep going in digging around when you try to relocate him.

You have to be CERTAIN there is no bird there before you relocate him. Don't let him catch another one.

If you don't have wild birds I'd get a couple of bird launchers and work him on those. When he points, be ready. Any movement at all by the dog pop the bird and then take him on. Try to teach him that his movement is what is flushing the bird. If he'll point every time without moving then you could work him back through where you have already launched a bird. If he false points, you know the bird is gone so send him to relocate and he should eventually figure out that a bird isn't there.

Your best be would be to find a pro trainer that goes to SD or ND and send him with him this summer. He'll learn real quick he can't pressure pointed birds.

Also, he's fairly young, at 1.5 he still has a lot to learn and wouldn't be considered broke yet. Wild birds would be the best medicine at this time.

 

[Sheepdog]

If I’m understanding it right it Sounds like a trust issue with you. You are telling him it’s ok to break his point. You have to trust him and pay attention to how he’s acting up to the point and while on it. If he’s telling you there’s a bird find it. Your forcing him to prove to you there’s a bird after he’s already done so. That trust will come the more you work together. He’s also learning the difference between a bird that was there and one right there. Is he whoa broke? If he is and you realize you made a mistake “Whoa” him. Be ready to pick him up and correct immediately if he doesn’t obey

can you put up a video?

He’s still young so don’t worry to much. Any dog can get interested in new smells-like your rat instance. Same can happen with rabbits, skunks, porcupines, raccoons etc. my female will lock up rock solid with the one of the most intense points you’ve ever seen in the Sandhills hunting prairie grouse. We’ll walk and walk working farther and farther out to around 100 yards then work back only to find she’s pointing a box turtle. Seems to happen once a year at least. I find it worth teaching the command “leave it” and using it as a breaking command -not subtle. It’s saved me from dealing with a couple porcupines and a few skunks. You have to be 110% sure they are not on a bird- I almost think I shouldn’t mention it.

 

[blake_mhoona]

He is whoa broke. When he does false point I’ll kick around and make sure there’s not a bird there. In the two particular instances where there ended up being a bird I saw body language that I recognized in the past as being false points (tail flagging and looking around). I still kicked around trying to produce a bird but in those instances however the the bird was buried deep in brush. When I released him I either wanted him to recognize there was no bird there or to establish a better (I.e. more indicative body language) for where the bird was. Instead he hunkered down to his belly to get the bird out.

FYI In these trials you aren’t allowed to say whoa until he establishes point. Saying whoa prior to a point being established makes the bird unscoreable. When I released him he’d have to go back on point before I could say whoa again. That’s why I was wondering how you could reproduce this scenario in training where you can speak freely and run a collar.

TL/DR: I want to be able to tap my dog on the head if I can’t produce a bird and him move around and reestablish a point or move on to a new area. Not flush a bird.

 

[jmez]

You would rather have an unscoreable point than have him catch the bird on the ground after you've sent him on. Better off whoaing him and picking him up, esp at 1.5 years.

I'm not familiar with the walking trials but with horseback trials you'd still be in puppy stakes with a 1.5 year old dog. A lot to ask to have a 1.5 year old dog "broke" IMO.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

 

[Sheepdog]

in those instances however the the bird was buried deep in brush.

Just a guess. Young dog, heavy cover reducing the amount of scent getting to your pup and the dog not having the experience yet to know. Your still releasing the pup. He’s doing what your telling him to do. He’ll get better if you set him up to.

FYI In these trials you aren’t allowed to say whoa until he establishes point. Saying whoa prior to a point being established makes the bird unscoreable. When I released him he’d have to go back on point before I could say whoa again. That’s why I was wondering how you could reproduce this scenario in training where you can speak freely and run a collar.

TL/DR: I want to be able to tap my dog on the head if I can’t produce a bird and him move around and reestablish a point or move on to a new area. Not flush a bird.

like JMEZ said, Who cares about a score if your instilling bad habits in your dog. Either you do the training before hand, pay for some one else to, or you use the trial to train. Either way you have to instill good habits and behaviors to get the dog the way you want to be for life. If you don’t your never going to have that dog get the scores your after anyways.

the only way you could try to recreate it training would to be burying that bird in deep cover trying to get the wind to draft over or around the bird trying to minimize the amount of scent being put off. It’d be hard to do on purpose and get the training value you are looking for. You could also try purposely releasing the pup when on point and immediately giving whoa and being ready for a correction. You’re still better of correcting unwanted behavior every time it happens especially now while he is young. Any time you allow the dog to do something you don’t want your allowing the dog to think that behavior is ok, no matter how old.

 

[ckrhtr]

You can use launchers to set up a scenario where you can work on the relocate like Jmez suggests. Working your dog on the launchers is going to give you the ability to make sure the dog will not catch again.....use pigeons. It will also give you an indication of how well the dog is scenting the bird, if this dog is letting down and flagging when he has a nose full scent you need to stop and re-evaluate.

 

[Sheepdog]

When I released him he’d have to go back on point before I could say whoa again.

Why would you need to say whoa if he’s already on point?

 

[Superdoo]

NSTRA is not ideal for a dog still learning. Try to get with a local NAVHDA chapter.
One thing that I work with mine on after I know they’ll hold point is two release commands that I use in hunting situations, easy and find it.
Easy is my way of telling the dog that I need some help locating the bird. I use it after I’ve attempted to get a flush while the dog is on point. I walk back to the dog and say “easy” then the dog works carefully until it points again.
I use “find it” when there’s probably a bird in the cat tails and there’s no way I can effectively get to it. The dog will then work to flush the bird. I also use this command when I want the dog to track a wounded bird and have an idea where the last scent is.

 

[blake_mhoona]

I think everyone may be a bit confused on what I’m asking. And what the dog is doing. And that’s probably my bad for inexperience in communicating in pointer language.

Superdoo’s definition of his easy command is what I’m looking for. How do you train that?

 

[jmez]

Training Pointing dogs by Paul Long. There is a section on it in there. Great book BTW.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

 

[jmez]

Hopefully you can read that.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

 

[jmez]

I don't trial. I teach them dead bird when hunting. Every time a bird hits the ground and they don't find it right away I'll throw something in the cover where the bird fell and start repeating dead in here. They'll look for what you threw. After a few times they will figure out when you start saying dead in here, they need to look. The actual command/word doesn't matter.

Mine have a check cord on until about 2. When they get bored with looking I can bring them back, toss something again and repeat. You have to be a little careful here, if they are leaving and actually following a cripple you don't want to bring them back. A little different here than with a trial type dog.

Once they know the command I can tell them dead in here and they will slow down and start looking.



Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

 

[Sheepdog]

PM sent.