High Ballistics Coefficients Means Squat on Elk?

[trophyhill]

It’s been an interesting past couple weeks since I have gotten back into the rifle game. And this is only out of necessity as I failed in September with my bow, and did not draw a NM archery tag. The necessity part is, I need meat! So back in April when I found out I didn’t draw a tag, I immediately bought a landowner cow rifle tag.

This meant I now had to buy a rifle. I thought I could go down to the local gun shop or just order what I wanted from Ruger. Boy was I wrong. This led me down a path with many rabbit holes. My rifle of choice would have been a Ruger M77 7 Rem Mag. Before I started bowhunting, I slayed mucho deer with that gun. But it is no longer available unless you buy used. And some of the prices I was seeing were 3-4 times the amount I had paid for a new rifle in 1995, for a used and abused gun!

I ended up doing a little homework and the choice was easy after talking to some folks. A lot easier than picking a bullet. Back then I’d load up a magazine with Winchester Supreme Ballistic Silver Tips and go kill deer. With most everyone sold out of ammo, I was now led down the path with all those rabbit holes because I’ve had to buy ammo I’ve never even heard of before. That’s how long it’s been. And the last thing I want to do is wound and not recover.

For example I’ve found a few boxes of Federal Non Typical 150gr ammo. A couple boxes Barnes Vor-TX LR 140gr. A half box of Hornady 139 SST left over from many years ago. 1 box of Federal Fusion 150gr. And I have 2 Federal Trophy Bonded 160gr coming. So these are my choices and I will have to make a decision and live with the outcome in a few weeks.

What I have is the Hells Canyon Speed 7 Rem Mag. There are tons of videos out there. Just google 7 MM Rem Mag Bullets for Elk and see what pops up.

For a beginner and someone who has never hunted elk, or the impressionable and naive, I believe there is a lot of bad information being pushed out there on what bullets are suited for killing elk. Particularly those long range target thin jacketed bullets being billed as the next best thing since sliced bread.

Hopefully some of the experienced elk killers with a rifle can or will chime in on the subject. I am certainly no ballistics aficionado on the subject, but I would think that 1500-2000 # of energy would be the minimum on what you want to feel confident. I have no doubt my rifle will do what I need to “git er done” out to 4 or 500 yards with more practice, but for now I will limit my shots to 300 yards because I know what I need to do with my scope at 300 to make hopefully a quick kill.

I’m not asking what bullet to use. My choice will be between the Federal Trophy Bonded 160 gr or the Barnes Vor-TX 140 gr. I’ve also read and heard good things about Nosler Partitions but they are scarce too.

What ammo are you using for elk, and why?

 

[5MilesBack]

I've always used hand-loaded 175gr Partitions and 175gr Swift A-frames on elk, out of my 7mags. I prefer the A-frames........they don't shed as much weight as the Partitions do, but they both work.

 

[prm]

I often wondered about various “target” bullets vs. dedicated hunting bullets. So, I set out to find out for myself. This started with shooting many into my own bullet trap consisting of particle board then into damp magazines. Not animals, but you start to get a feel for what a bullet will do. The one bullet I recovered from a short range shot on a large animal looks identical to the same bullets recovered from my trap. Then I tried a 6.5 139 Scenar on a Mule Deer. In one side out the other with the far side lung really messed up and a nice exit hole. That passed. Then I shot a bull elk with a 140gn 6.5 Berger VLD. Bull died on the spot. Looking at the wound channel it occurred to me I would have no idea what cartridge/caliber was used as it was quite substantial damage. Not enough evidence or data points to be conclusive, but I now don’t worry about it. I will say a decent number of “hunting” bullets performed far worse in my tests. Partitions and TTSXs always perform exceptional. I had a 6.5 140 Partition loaded for elk this year, but the elk didn’t cooperate. I’ll add, the PHs I know in S. Africa see a LOT of animals shot, and they feel the A-Frame is the finest bullet made. On my list to try.

 

[rayporter]

180 grand slams, home rolled
perhaps 15 were pass throughs but i have found these

the far right bullet is not mine and was found against the hide right beside the bullet that killed the elk- it is 30 cal

 

[rayporter]

a bud was searching for an elk bullet and knew i shot grand slams so i gave him 2 and he shot an assorted lot of bullets into wet magazines. his opinion was the grand slams were a fail.

since then i personally dont put much faith into that medium for testing

 

[204guy]

At 300yds bc isn't going to mean much to you.

But how can you form an opinion on killing elk with a rifle and what style of bullets work having never done it?

I'm sure you've seen it but there's some good stuff on the 2 lost elk thread. There's also a ton of what is the equivalent of "bro science" with regards to how and what bullets work. Also a lot of 1 year of experience - 20 times. Good luck sorting through it.

 

[MThuntr]

Of the choices you have they are all going to work well for elk. Partitions have killed elk since their inception. Same with the Vor-TX and the Trophy Bonded. Sure the Partitions have what today is considered poor ballistic coefficient but within 400 yards that's a non-issue.

My preferences of the 3 you mention would be Vor-TX then Partition then Trophy Bonded. Accubonds are way up on the list too. Ammo is basically nonexistent so don't wait to make a choice.

Trigger time is just as important (probably more so) than bullet design...granted I won't shoot anything designed for targets. Buy as much of the same lot as you can once you choose a bullet. This day in age you're going to have a hell of a time finding much if you don't already have some set aside.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

I often wondered about various “target” bullets vs. dedicated hunting bullets. So, I set out to find out for myself. This started with shooting many into my own bullet trap consisting of particle board then into damp magazines. Not animals, but you start to get a feel for what a bullet will do. The one bullet I recovered from a short range shot on a large animal looks identical to the same bullets recovered from my trap. Then I tried a 6.5 139 Scenar on a Mule Deer. In one side out the other with the far side lung really messed up and a nice exit hole. That passed. Then I shot a bull elk with a 140gn 6.5 Berger VLD. Bull died on the spot. Looking at the wound channel it occurred to me I would have no idea what cartridge/caliber was used as it was quite substantial damage. Not enough evidence or data points to be conclusive, but I now don’t worry about it. I will say a decent number of “hunting” bullets performed far worse in my tests. Partitions and TTSXs always perform exceptional. I had a 6.5 140 Partition loaded for elk this year, but the elk didn’t cooperate. I’ll add, the PHs I know in S. Africa see a LOT of animals shot, and they feel the A-Frame is the finest bullet made. On my list to try.

I agree with your results and they make sense. What I do not understand is why hunters want their bullets to still be in one piece after entering the animal. Since I don't really need the vitals and am looking for meat, so what if the bullet grenades. This increases the wounds to the animal and they seem to die quicker.

However, that is kinda secondary to the most important point, accuracy. A well placed shot will drop the animal, period. I see a lot of people shooting magnums who have questionable to horrible accuracy. No matter how you slice it, heavier recoiling rifles reduce accuracy.

 

[trophyhill]

At 300yds bc isn't going to mean much to you.

But how can you form an opinion on killing elk with a rifle and what style of bullets work having never done it?



I'm sure you've seen it but there's some good stuff on the 2 lost elk thread. There's also a ton of what is the equivalent of "bro science" with regards to how and what bullets work. Also a lot of 1 year of experience - 20 times. Good luck sorting through it.

My apology for the confusion. That thread is part of why I started this one after reading a response from Indian Summer. I actually have killed 2 cow elk with that Ruger M77 I was referencing. Both 154 gr Hornady SST 100 yard or less broadside shots. The bullets disintegrated with very little penetration. I’m not confident that same outcome would have been had on a further shot say 3-400 yards or more and a less than perfect shot.

 

[JLane330]

Not to sound like a jerk, but you seem to be over thinking it. You have a selection of bullets in limited quantity. The bullet that you get adequate accuracy is probably the best choice of those you listed, especially if staying within 300 yds. Can you hit a paper plate at 300 yds? If so, you're fine for elk. Some (many?) on here may disagree, and that's fine, this isn't bro science...lol!
I've killed several elk over the years with my 7mm Mag. All have been one shot kills from ~125 - 300 yds. Double lungs put them down quick. My first bull was killed with a Remington CorLok (didn't know anything about bullets at that point). The bull went 10 yds and tipped over. The rest have been with 160 gr Barnes TSX. They have performed perfectly each and every time, and my rifle is accurate with them (approx 1 moa). I wouldn't hesitate to use those or the 140 gr offerings. The only cow I ever killed with it, shot at ~290 yds, went 2 yds. I've never had to track a bull either, they die right there. 7mm Rem Mag is PLENTY of power for elk with a properly placed shot.
My buddy has killed all his elk (10+ I'd estimate) except one (archery) with his 7mm Mag. Same deal, good shots are highly lethal. He uses 140gr Nosler reloads IIRC.
I'm not far from you and set up to reload with the TSX 160 gr. If it wasn't for the liability, I'd load some up for you. I'm just not willing to take that risk, sorry.
Final thought...you can always use your bow if you're more comfortable with that. At this point I'd use my muzzleloader just for fun. I have high confidence in it after this season...my GF and I killed two bulls at distance with it. In other words, nothing says you have to use a rifle.
Good luck!

 

[trophyhill]

Not to sound like a jerk, but you seem to be over thinking it. You have a selection of bullets in limited quantity. The bullet that you get adequate accuracy is probably the best choice of those you listed, especially if staying within 300 yds. Can you hit a paper plate at 300 yds? If so, you're fine for elk. Some (many?) on here may disagree, and that's fine, this isn't bro science...lol!
I've killed several elk over the years with my 7mm Mag. All have been one shot kills from ~125 - 300 yds. Double lungs put them down quick. My first bull was killed with a Remington CorLok (didn't know anything about bullets at that point). The bull went 10 yds and tipped over. The rest have been with 160 gr Barnes TSX. They have performed perfectly each and every time, and my rifle is accurate with them (approx 1 moa). I wouldn't hesitate to use those or the 140 gr offerings. The only cow I ever killed with it, shot at ~290 yds, went 2 yds. I've never had to track a bull either, they die right there. 7mm Rem Mag is PLENTY of power for elk with a properly placed shot.
My buddy has killed all his elk (10+ I'd estimate) except one (archery) with his 7mm Mag. Same deal, good shots are highly lethal. He uses 140gr Nosler reloads IIRC.
I'm not far from you and set up to reload with the TSX 160 gr. If it wasn't for the liability, I'd load some up for you. I'm just not willing to take that risk, sorry.
Final thought...you can always use your bow if you're more comfortable with that. At this point I'd use my muzzleloader just for fun. I have high confidence in it after this season...my GF and I killed two bulls at distance with it. In other words, nothing says you have to use a rifle.
Good luck!

Lol I’ll be hunting that country I’ve seen Newberg hunt. Pretty much open country with no cover. I guess that would be the ultimate woodsmanship skill test doing it with my D350. I’d have to put the knee pads back in the Sitka Mountain Pants lol.

It’s funny, all those brands I’ve mentioned are all shooting good out to 300. Once I get the TB 160’s and shoot them, we will see.

Those 2 cows I killed, the meat on the front shoulders were pretty much ruined from the explosion of those bullets making everything jello despite them being lung shots.

10-4 on the liability. I appreciate that. I see where a lawsuit is now pending to make Cabelas liable for a negligent death from stupidity along with Remington I think it was in NY. Could have major implications on where we get our ammo in the future

 

[Formidilosus]

My apology for the confusion. That thread is part of why I started this one after reading a response from Indian Summer. I actually have killed 2 cow elk with that Ruger M77 I was referencing. Both 154 gr Hornady SST 100 yard or less broadside shots. The bullets disintegrated with very little penetration. I’m not confident that same outcome would have been had on a further shot say 3-400 yards or more and a less than perfect shot.

Except what he writes has no basis in reality. It’s not factual, and easily proven incorrect- as has been discussed numerous times in here.

The SST you used would perform better at 300-400 yards then up close. You really ought to learn about terminal ballistic facts and stop listening to gun shop ignorance.

 

[204guy]

SST's have a reputation for being extremely soft. More so than most match bullets even. Jellied & bloodshot can happen with any bullet from hard to soft. Since you're shooting a cow for meat, this is all kinda trivial. Anything you currently have will work fine. You shouldn't be pushing hard angles and going through shoulders ext as it just wastes meat. And as already said, with 300yd max, bc is basically irrelevant. Broadside shot behind the shoulder - go collect elk.

 

[trophyhill]

Except what he writes has no basis in reality. It’s not factual, and easily proven incorrect- as has been discussed numerous times in here.

The SST you used would perform better at 300-400 yards then up close. You really ought to learn about terminal ballistic facts and stop listening to gun shop ignorance.

How much of what has been “discussed many times here on Rokslide”, would you consider drivel or “gun shop ignorance”? What qualifies that? Is someone else’s multiple experience now somehow diminished to “gunshop ignorance”? Or are we talking real live proven consistent hunting results?

As stated earlier in the thread, it’s been long enough that I have not hunted with a rifle, the ammo has changed a bunch. Which led me down those rabbit holes. However I did not say why I stopped hunting with a rifle and started hunting with a bow.

There were 2 major contributing factors. 1 - it got too easy and I’d been tossing around the idea of either stopping hunting altogether, or trying my hand at archery. When I say too easy, if I could see them, I could kill them. And 2 - my last deer hunt with a rifle in 2007 was a sketchy situation. I had killed a buck opening morning, first thing, and while field dressing wwlll broke out from the other side of the ridge with bullets ricocheting off the ridge 10’ above me. It was that defining moment where I looked at my buddy and said to him, “I’m a bowhunter next year! This shits getting too f-ing dangerous!” And haven’t looked back until now.

With such a long layoff on rifle hunting, I feel excited and anxious. Can’t wait!

 

[AaronMColeman]

I think people obsess over things that don't require it. Get any dedicated hunting bullet, and work up a load, or grab any hunting ammo off the shelf. You'll be fine. I've killed elk with 300wm 180g Nosler accubond, I've killed elk with 30-06 165g Sierra Game King, I've killed elk with off the shelf corelokt. All of this is even more true if you're shooting under 300y-400y.

I mean, I obsess over these things too . But the truth is bullets are so freaking good right now that I don't think you really need to get too in depth (unless you really want to, but I would look at that as "hobby" and not absolutely necessary to kill an elk). Loads of guys killed elk in the old days with a .270 using bullets that don't compare to even the worst hunting bullets...and I'm sure a .270 will still take an elk with old fashion bullets!

Where BC comes in is longer ranges, and target shooting. Big game are big targets. I wouldn't overthink it, even though I have overthought it in the past.

 

[87TT]

The four elk I have shot with a rifle, and all four died on the spot, were with a M77 30 06 with 165 gr partitions. Any meat loss (only on one) was a bad shoulder shot on a follow up shot which probably wasn't needed but I was real close to a piece of private.

 

[Formidilosus]

How much of what has been “discussed many times here on Rokslide”, would you consider drivel or “gun shop ignorance”? What qualifies that? Is someone else’s multiple experience now somehow diminished to “gunshop ignorance”? Or are we talking real live proven consistent hunting results?

A lot of what is written amounts to gun shop ignorance. The reason is because most of what is knowledge in the gun/hunting world comes from myths, feelings, and grandpappy said so; rather than any sort of study or rigorous research. That is knowing by verifiable, repeatable, and consistent testing. No legitimate terminal ballistics test facility talk energy, hydrostatic shock, or “power”. They talk penetration depth, temporary stretch cavity, neck length, etc. They measure the wounds created and the damage caused by the passage of the bullet.

Killing comes from removing something that the animal requires for life. HV projectiles do that through tissue destruction. “Ft-lbs energy” does not tell you anything as it’s not a wounding mechanism. “Hydrostatic shock” is not a wounding mechanism. Bullets create a 3D wound channel through tissue, in short- how deep and how wide the wound path determines how much tissue can be damaged. The more tissue damaged all else being equal, the faster animals are incapacitated.

 

[txhunter581]

Of all the bullets mentioned, the best one to use would be the most accurate. Except for SST type bullets. Would never choose that for elk.

personally, 90% of the time I have used Nosler partitions in 160 gr in my 7 mm mag. But switched to Accubonds this year when couldn’t get partitions.

 

[prm]

Not exactly relevant to your present situation but mentioning SSTs, they were one that left me scratching my head. The core would essentially turn to powder. No core left, just a jacket and dust. Weird. Those were older .338 200gn SSTs. I’ve heard rumors they were modified, I cannot verify that. The other odd duck is the .338 215 Sierra Gameking. They went through 3’ of DRY magazines (which destroy most bullets) and just left a pencil hole. Then they went into the ground and after digging a couple feet and not finding them I gave up. Both cup and core bullets, completely opposite results. That leads to my point, bullets like the TTSX or Trophy Bonded Tip always look (function) the same within a reasonable range of conditions. I can appreciate consistency. Partitions don’t always look the same, but the end result is generally the same. That’s nice too. Scenars and Berger VLDs are also surprisingly consistent in their performance.

 

[hobbes]

I've no idea how reputable this is, but it's a good read even if it does seem to contradict some of the info above. Id skip the history lesson and start at "How Does a Bullet Kill" and read at least through "Bullet Diameter".

Effective Game Killing

Effective game killing- How bullets kill and where to aim to ensure a fast clean kill.

www.ballisticstudies.com