Hold over scope

TK-421

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Just out of curiosity, if your shot calls for a 16 MOA drop at X yards, what is the difference between a scope that has a pre set sub-tension of 16 MOA and one where you turn a dial to 16 MOA? Why does dialing give you a better 16 MOA aiming point?

Ryan
Because you typically won’t have a 16 MOA holdover. It’ll be a non-whole number coupled with a wind hold, and likely at an odd ball distance. Next time you’re shooting 800 yards try dialing, then try hold offs/overs.
 

4ester

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I’d highly recommend not holding in the reticle at that distance. Your probably gonna have to reduce magnification just to be able to hold on, then you will have to be perfectly level to be anywhere close to accurate, add some wind and your gonna be holding out in no mans land (unless with a x-mad tree type reticle).

You didn’t want to hear it..... but dialing is gonna be way more accurate with a good scope.

I have looked at that Sig BDX system, and that might be the ticket for him. As long as you set it up right for him.


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ncstewart

ncstewart

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Thanks for the info fellas. I think he gonna maybe try both methods and see. I don’t honestly see anything pass 600 in the real world but think he gonna try both and just see for himself.

Y’all gonna make me go try to hold now myself at 700-800 to see for myself. I only shot 500 so y’all got my curiosity up


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hereinaz

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Glass
Just out of curiosity, if your shot calls for a 16 MOA drop at X yards, what is the difference between a scope that has a pre set sub-tension of 16 MOA and one where you turn a dial to 16 MOA? Why does dialing give you a better 16 MOA aiming point?

Ryan
Glass is always clearer in the center.

Light refracts differently on the outside, the further you go from center.

Reticles aren't always etched perfectly.

Visually, your eye is drawn to the center of circles, so focusing outside takes more mental effort than you think.

It is much easier to forget which hash/stadia mark you are holding for elevation and wind. It takes time to find it unless you practice regularly. Doesn't sound to me like the shooter is that type to get obsessed enough to master it.

Follow up shots are harder to find the hold, make the correction, and press the trigger again.

Basically, EVERYTHING is working against you. Imagine trying to keep track of a moving animal from a weird field position while trying to find the 16 moa stadia hash and then move over for your changing wind hold. Then, you miss the shot, and your hold is so deep in the tree your eye misses the splash so you can't self correct. Then, you get a correction call, then have to find the correct hold all over again while the animal is moving and stress is increasing.

But, consider if you click on 16.75 MOA, you are done and then it is easy to know your HOME and add or subtract wind and even elevation changes in holds off the zero point. You have to retain much less in memory and can commit much more brain power to necessary tasks.

Shooting is far more mental than physical, IMO.
 

Sandstrom

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Because you typically won’t have a 16 MOA holdover. It’ll be a non-whole number coupled with a wind hold, and likely at an odd ball distance. Next time you’re shooting 800 yards try dialing, then try hold offs/overs.

I get what you are saying about not always having a hold of an even number. Maybe it was bad on my part to use an example of 16 MOA.
But that doesn’t answer my question of why a hold of X units is better dialed to than as a factory designed sub-tension. For the sake of my question lets say wind is not a factor and the gun is held level.

I am not trying to argue, just trying to understand.

Thanks

Ryan
 

Sandstrom

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Glass

Glass is always clearer in the center.

Light refracts differently on the outside, the further you go from center.

Reticles aren't always etched perfectly.

Visually, your eye is drawn to the center of circles, so focusing outside takes more mental effort than you think.

It is much easier to forget which hash/stadia mark you are holding for elevation and wind. It takes time to find it unless you practice regularly. Doesn't sound to me like the shooter is that type to get obsessed enough to master it.

Follow up shots are harder to find the hold, make the correction, and press the trigger again.

Basically, EVERYTHING is working against you. Imagine trying to keep track of a moving animal from a weird field position while trying to find the 16 moa stadia hash and then move over for your changing wind hold. Then, you miss the shot, and your hold is so deep in the tree your eye misses the splash so you can't self correct. Then, you get a correction call, then have to find the correct hold all over again while the animal is moving and stress is increasing.

But, consider if you click on 16.75 MOA, you are done and then it is easy to know your HOME and add or subtract wind and even elevation changes in holds off the zero point. You have to retain much less in memory and can commit much more brain power to necessary tasks.

Shooting is far more mental than physical, IMO.

Thanks! I was asking my next question when you replied. That makes a lot of sense about the glass being distorted closer to the edges. Also the fact that you more likely to spot a miss while focusing on the center.

Thank you for spending the time to explain in a very detailed and well thought out way as opposed to just saying it is a bad idea!!

Ryan
 

TK-421

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I get what you are saying about not always having a hold of an even number. Maybe it was bad on my part to use an example of 16 MOA.
But that doesn’t answer my question of why a hold of X units is better dialed to than as a factory designed sub-tension. For the sake of my question lets say wind is not a factor and the gun is held level.

I am not trying to argue, just trying to understand.

Thanks

Ryan
You’ll always have a windhold in real life. I’m not trying to argue either. All the little things can compound, so most of us will take out known errors if & when we can.

Like I said, try both for yourself. Dialing elevation is so fast and easy, there’s no reason not to for me. Since I picked up a LSW Kahles, I dial wind a bit now too.
 

hereinaz

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Thanks! I was asking my next question when you replied. That makes a lot of sense about the glass being distorted closer to the edges. Also the fact that you more likely to spot a miss while focusing on the center.

Thank you for spending the time to explain in a very detailed and well thought out way as opposed to just saying it is a bad idea!!

Ryan
There are reasons for general "rules" and knowing why is as helpful to understand the rule and change it.
 

hereinaz

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Thanks! I was asking my next question when you replied. That makes a lot of sense about the glass being distorted closer to the edges. Also the fact that you more likely to spot a miss while focusing on the center.

Thank you for spending the time to explain in a very detailed and well thought out way as opposed to just saying it is a bad idea!!

Ryan
The practical reality in application is what separates the two as methods. Given time on a range, holding is easy. In stressful situation, much harder.

It is so easy to dial, that's what shooters do in competitions whenever possible.
 

OXN939

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Y’all gonna make me go try to hold now myself at 700-800 to see for myself. I only shot 500 so y’all got my curiosity up

Excellent call, and good on you for taking the time to do this. I shoot with some guys who are extremely proficient at the LR gig. We actually talked about this the other day, and not one of them said they'd take a shot past 300 with a BDC reticle type optic. If anyone thinks this is unreasonably conservative, go place a 6" steel target at 300 yards and look in the real world at everything that can, and frequently does, go wrong at that distance.

BDC reticles are great tools that give quick shots for average hunting distances, but they are not a good choice for long range precision.
 

woods89

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Excellent call, and good on you for taking the time to do this. I shoot with some guys who are extremely proficient at the LR gig. We actually talked about this the other day, and not one of them said they'd take a shot past 300 with a BDC reticle type optic. If anyone thinks this is unreasonably conservative, go place a 6" steel target at 300 yards and look in the real world at everything that can, and frequently does, go wrong at that distance.

BDC reticles are great tools that give quick shots for average hunting distances, but they are not a good choice for long range precision.
I had a BDC scope at one point, thought it would be the simple way and all, and found the same thing. Holding in dead space doesn't work very well.

I now have a Nightforce that I can dial. For me it's way more precise to hold for wind right on the horizontal wire.
 

lyle_destroys

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5-600 is really the farthest I expect a bdc reticle to work for someone. After that just learn how to dial like an adult.
 

Wacko

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I think BDC's are great for up to 500 yards.

Most guys that have tried them and don't like them, haven't used them in the right context. Trying to hit a steel plate hanging from something is not what they are designed for - hear me out. Doing so leads to "holding in space" for wind, and having an undefined elevation hold too. Thankfully animals are full of reference points you can use when you shoot them!

A more practical target would be to hang your plate in a cut out in a sheet of plywood with a full size target painted, or spray adhesive a full size one on it. Now you have reference points like in real life to hold off on for wind. And / Or elevation to an extent. You could also hang strips from the crossbar of your target frame behind the steel - if you use one - and paint them vertical left and right, horizontal over top and bottom. Now you have references - again like real life.

I say if you can hold ".2 mils" on an arbitrary line you can hold ".5" or whatever on another reference line.

Hitting center on a steel plate is great, but killing requires "hitting them in the front half" (John Barsness?)..LOL. Surgical precision isn't required. Just hit the plate! Obviously the closer to your aim point the better - practice!

If an animal has a 10" kill zone there is some room for error and you will still get an ethical kill. For example: 308 win, 168 baltip, 2650fps, 8000' ele - - wind is left to right, your bullet drifts .5" per 1mph of wind at 300 yards. A 10" target will give you 0-20 mph of wind error if you hold "left edge" of the kill zone plate (KZP). A 10 mph wind hits center KZP. A 20 mph wind hits on the right edge. Of course that can put you at the edges and not always the best result. However, if you can call wind even a little, you will hit the KZP closer to center. Dead critter....

Now elevation Example: Your target is at 280 yards, your reference lines up at 300.....so use it. The bullet path is about 2.2" high at that range from your 300 yard mark. If you can shoot 1moa with the rifle your "cone" will be within 1.5" ish of your point of aim....thus resulting in a dead on hit with your aim point if it hits at the bottom of the cone or up to 3.5" high...ish. Dead critter....

The issues come as range increases. You will find yourself having less defined references, and less room for error in wind and elevation. Having to hold in space, or further down the optic all create issues farther out.

Again, I'm not saying dialing isn't more precise. It is. It isn't always needed by everyone though. BDC's are a system, learn to use it as proficiently as is possible and it will work just fine. Keep it in the shorter ranges it is designed for, learn it, practice, and it will be very effective. It has limits like everything else.

Just my 2 cents....
 

Short Track

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I hold over out to 500 yards. The problem is anything past 200, I need to be fully zoomed in, or the hold over lines are way off.
That's because I zero at 200.
 

Stinky Coyote

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Trijicon 3-9x40 green mil-dot will work. It's uncluttered and out of the way until you need it, dial up to 9x and you've got 5 simple hold points over your zero. The last one will get you over 700 depending on load.

On my slow grendel launching a .5 bc as 2386 fps it looks like this:

zero 200
1st dot 300
2nd dot 390
3rd dot 475
4th dot 550
5th hold is where post thickens - 620

So the 300 wm might get to 800 on that reticle.

He will love that green dot for where 98% of the action is had.
 

Short Track

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They build hold over scopes for a reason. It's certainly quicker, but I need to be zoomed in past my zero mark.
 
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