How to Incentivise Restraint

squirrel

WKR
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May 25, 2017
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324
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colorado
I am trying to come up with a way to allow hunting to accomplish management goals. My goals are actually quite simple. I want to take a serious number of does off of my property and increase the buck to doe ratio. I am not at all opposed to taking old age class bucks in limited numbers, I am just fine with larger numbers of older cull deer being taken. And there is the rub my cull deer may not be someone else's cull buck.

For a ball park definition of my own definition I will define a cull buck as one who is over 4-1/2 years of age and less than 145"

Without arguing over what is, or is not a "cull buck" which ALWAYS goes off the rails. What are some creative and enforceable ways to incentivise +/or punish people to get them to try to conform to my wishes? I prefer carrot to stick, in theory these will be friends, not paying trespassers. Too harsh of policy and they may become X-friends.

I know some outfits that set inch limits complete with fines. Again without arguing over the inches part how would fines/punishment be meted out in a far manner? You know the old communism slogan, from each according to his means...type.

I would really love to hear of some creative solutions. I spent countless hours sitting in a tree last fall pondering just this and have some ideas but do not want to poison the well of ideas here.

I have been around the block a time or two and heard all the excuses upon getting caught with an 18" 5x5 in the truck.
" didn't see the horns"
"I shot at one bigger and this one dropped"
"It's the biggest Ive ever seen and knew you would understand"
etc!

I finally came to the inevitable conclusion that allowing hunters only during doe season was about my best option since then any buck would be in violation. This would mean that only I can "shoot the wrong buck" and I can immediately write myself a "get-out-of-jail-free" card. Pull out another tag and try to do better upon subsequent shots!

If some of you have camps and rules on harvest I would love to hear of your policies.

A few pics of culls, because... why not64CB1C6B-4606-48EA-9E85-0E69F44EF382_1_201_a.jpegF83E52D6-3CC8-49D1-BA7E-10A4B3A494B5.jpeg
 

OMB

WKR
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
314
Outside of high fence operations, studies have shown culling in wild populations to have negligible benefits at best, and are counter productive to growing larger deer at worst. Removing those 5+ year 6 and 8 point bully bucks is probably more important. There's a lot of research out there if you search it out, but here's a solid overview: https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/deer-scouting/the-facts-and-truth-about-culling-bucks


That being said, my family has a 1000 acre farm in the Upper Midwest that we've had for 20+ years and we've tried everything during gun season. For a while it was, "if you shoot a buck, you have to shoulder mount it." But there's a few guys that wouldn't hesitate to shoulder mount a 120" 8 point buck. What worked was eventually warning one of the most blatant offenders, and then no longer allowing him to hunt at our place. Since that happened, everyone has pretty much got the message and we're averaging 150" on all bucks killed.
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2018
Messages
507
Location
Colorado
I am trying to come up with a way to allow hunting to accomplish management goals. My goals are actually quite simple. I want to take a serious number of does off of my property and increase the buck to doe ratio. I am not at all opposed to taking old age class bucks in limited numbers, I am just fine with larger numbers of older cull deer being taken. And there is the rub my cull deer may not be someone else's cull buck.

For a ball park definition of my own definition I will define a cull buck as one who is over 4-1/2 years of age and less than 145"

Without arguing over what is, or is not a "cull buck" which ALWAYS goes off the rails. What are some creative and enforceable ways to incentivise +/or punish people to get them to try to conform to my wishes? I prefer carrot to stick, in theory these will be friends, not paying trespassers. Too harsh of policy and they may become X-friends.

I know some outfits that set inch limits complete with fines. Again without arguing over the inches part how would fines/punishment be meted out in a far manner? You know the old communism slogan, from each according to his means...type.

I would really love to hear of some creative solutions. I spent countless hours sitting in a tree last fall pondering just this and have some ideas but do not want to poison the well of ideas here.

I have been around the block a time or two and heard all the excuses upon getting caught with an 18" 5x5 in the truck.
" didn't see the horns"
"I shot at one bigger and this one dropped"
"It's the biggest Ive ever seen and knew you would understand"
etc!

I finally came to the inevitable conclusion that allowing hunters only during doe season was about my best option since then any buck would be in violation. This would mean that only I can "shoot the wrong buck" and I can immediately write myself a "get-out-of-jail-free" card. Pull out another tag and try to do better upon subsequent shots!

If some of you have camps and rules on harvest I would love to hear of your policies.

A few pics of culls, because... why notView attachment 425105View attachment 425106
I think the threat of losing the privilege to hunt if they kill bucks that are not up to par would be enough for most people to make sure they're following the rules. Make it one and done. No grace. People will take it seriously if they understand you mean it and it's a privilege to hunt your property.


If you need someone to come cull the big bucks, I'd be happy to sacrifice and be your guy🙂
 

amassi

WKR
Joined
May 26, 2018
Messages
3,658
Make em shoot the does before they can shoot bucks.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 
OP
S

squirrel

WKR
Joined
May 25, 2017
Messages
324
Location
colorado
Some very valid observations guys. I've also witnessed the "shoot it... must mount it" and its subsequent failure.

Ive thought about a "shoot five does this year to earn a buck permit next year". Im afraid they will not shoot the second 5. But it still is in play as a possibility. Fail to get your allotted five and no buck permit the following year.

Josoren, For some reason the list to come hunt with free rein is quite long!! Almost everyone who visits volunteers to get on that particular list! Even the concrete driver volunteered.

But I have witnessed a lot of un-detered people willing to get booted. Ive observed they usually try to sneak the sub-par bucks off under a tarp.
 

wesfromky

WKR
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
843
Location
KY
As was mentioned, culling doesn't really work.

The club I hunt has a 15" inside spread minimum, though it is encouraged to pass on 2.5 years. Shooting a smaller buck can lead to losing hunting privileges, membership to the club(lots of other stuff to do besides hunting there), and potential confiscation of the deer. All deer must be seen by one of the wildlife committee and all harvest confirmation numbers must be logged before it leaves the property.

A lot of shared properties around here have a kill x number of does before you are allowed to kill a buck policies, so you don't have to worry if they come back next year or not, since they have to kill does to be able to kill a buck.

I think more then anything - you need to decide on your goals. Are you going to manage for the biggest bucks or for opportunity at solid bucks. It might be better to mark certain bucks as off limits vs trying to stop people from shooting the 2.5 or 3.5 year olds. Come up with a well defined and written out set of rules, make everyone read and sign as part of the permission process. Then, enforce the rules by denying access for those that break it.
 

LostArra

WKR
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
3,435
Location
Oklahoma
Guests shoot does.
The End


I'm serious. You have a clear picture of what bucks you want killed and what bucks you don't want killed. Someone who is not familiar with your deer population or doesn't hunt that much and see many deer can fall victim to ground shrinkage on the wrong deer and they honestly thought they were doing the right thing.

Most people would appreciate the opportunity to hunt and kill a doe. Just seeing bucks would be a bonus.
I spend $$$ to travel and hunt cow elk. It's still exciting to see the bulls.
 
OP
S

squirrel

WKR
Joined
May 25, 2017
Messages
324
Location
colorado
Guests shoot does.
The End


I'm serious. You have a clear picture of what bucks you want killed and what bucks you don't want killed. Someone who is not familiar with your deer population or doesn't hunt that much and see many deer can fall victim to ground shrinkage on the wrong deer and they honestly thought they were doing the right thing.

Most people would appreciate the opportunity to hunt and kill a doe. Just seeing bucks would be a bonus.
I spend $$$ to travel and hunt cow elk. It's still exciting to see the bulls.
I'm there on the shoot does only rule, as you can guess I'm having a lot of markers called in to allow these guys to whack a buck. Some just make me laugh but some are legitimate markers accumulated over the years. Just trying to come up with a system that everyone can live with. My personal needs are to hunt old deer, no matter the "score". if he is 5+ years old I'm happy.

Pondered all kinds of policy to prod people into compliance. Fines (sliding scale) weapons restrictions, age class Just trying to pick brains on what works, I know a lot of stuff that does not, from being a guest at other places and seeing just how low hunters can be.

I've been reading club policies and most are crude at best and punitive, the kind of stuff just causes riffs, not pulling towards a common goal. And of course there is only one acceptable common goal, MINE... says so right there on the tax bill!!

Another cull buck, not sure why I never got invited back.82721625-7101-4C05-80F6-EC69D1321DE6.jpeg
 

HuntingEd

FNG
Joined
Jun 28, 2022
Messages
31
This is a tricky one for sure, I always go back to a deer is never worth losing a friend over, but it can be amazingly frustrating! For a few years I stopped hunting with the groups where they couldn't be patient, mostly because I had better spots with mature deer, but I've realized its better to just accept there will be guys that are trigger happy and it takes a lot to change that. Over time, I'd rather have a buddy to hang out with, help maintain the property, and count on as a friend vs a chance a bigger buck.

That said, our go to rule is if you take a buck it must be a shoulder mount, unless there's an obvious reason (injured, etc). We also try to have a min of 125" and we have a few deer on the wall that we tell folks are at the minimum so they can see what it looks like. I also keep a folder of "DONT SHOOT" trail cam photos and go over it with visitors or newer guys that I know would shoot them, particularly those very tempting 130" younger bucks.

Another tactic the neighboring club uses is 5 gal bucket rule, the antlers cant fit into a 5 gal bucket. Not the best rule, but it certainly prevents a lot of 2.5 yrs olds from being taken.

Honestly though, the most effective is getting everyone's buy-in on holding off on those 3.5 yr bucks that are just above the min. If you get enough folks on board and have enough carrying capacity you will take more and more mature deer and the group will continue to let deer walk based on the results of big bucks every year.
 

WCB

WKR
Joined
Jun 12, 2019
Messages
3,250
Easiest way to accomplish this in my opinion is let youth hunters come in kill does and limit buck hunters to those you know are on the same page as you. All my hunting buddies that I actually get calls from to hunt or will call them to set up a hunt I am 100% confident will only kill mature bucks. Maybe not big score wise but they are mature. If I told them they have to shoot 2 or 3 does before a buck they would have that accomplished ASAP and would probably ask if I needed more taken.

If you have to incentivize people to accomplish YOUR goal beyond just requesting it...give up now.

Also, if you want guys to "buy in" on YOUR goals IMO there should not be a ceiling either. If you want 5 does shot before a buck and a guy kills his 5 does...IMO a shitty move is to then say you can now kill a buck that meets xyz criteria EXCEPT for this buck because he is a giant and I want to kill him. I see this on hunting shows or just in general and it rubs me the wrong way.
 

dtrkyman

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Joined
Oct 2, 2014
Messages
2,931
I managed some properties for some rich guys for a while, guests were basically told what deer to shoot or not to shoot for the most part. Very few issues, violators were not welcome back!

I also avoided hunting guys in areas with off limits bucks, all this sounds great but is not easy to manage depending on the amount of property you have.

Just realize someone will make a mistake or just flat out shoot a buck because they wanted to, I miss managing the properties but do not miss the constant what's he score mentality, it gets old!

Had several good guys hunt every year and they simply did what I asked, some others didn't get it through their thick skull why those guys always killed bucks!

The last few years we had a group of boy scouts come and kill does late season they used x bows and were extremely effective! Talk about spoon fed, but it was fun!
 

KyleR1985

WKR
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
382
Charge an entry fee/deposit.

It has to be an amount that hurts to lose for the person losing it. That might be 5k it might be 50k.

You hold that deposit until the person no longer hunts there. They get their money back when they leave the club.

If they shoot a deer that can be objectively determined to be outside of the guidelines for harvest you've set (spread, inches scored, body weight, age, etc.) by a biologist or certified scorer, they lose their deposit, and are no longer a member of the club.

You retain the rights to allow them back in for another entry fee/deposit. Since they've displayed that the first one was not enough to discourage bad behavior in two ways (they broke the rule the first time, and they have enough money to pay again), that number likely goes up.

I personally think anyone who cares about these types of things are silly. But there are plenty of folks who really, really care about trophy animals. And the ones who are obsessed are the ones who don't mind putting money into their pursuit in this way.
 
Joined
Feb 4, 2017
Messages
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Location
IN
Let me know if you figure this out...I run into the guy that swears he is a killer but turns out to be a wounder...or that is a killer, of every small buck out there....
 
Joined
May 6, 2018
Messages
8,823
Location
Shenandoah Valley
I do does only.

If there's a particular bully buck I let a few know he is fair game, but for the most part across the board, it's doe only.


Most are pretty happy to have a spot to go doe hunt, especially when it's a good property. Meaning, good numbers, good stand locations, and pretty good opportunities, even if it is they can only take does.
 
Joined
Feb 15, 2019
Messages
902
My first question is how much property do you own and is this property high fenced?

High fence objectives are very different from low fence/no fence objectives.

On my meager 400 acres low fenced, i made a rule this past season that if you shoot a buck you owe me two doe. The year before i said a buck must be older than 4yo to be shot, but i wont enforce if it is someones first buck. I do not want early hunters to be so worried about the rules they forget the passion. My son in law shot his first buck last season and he owes me one doe still, so when he comes out to hunt this year he will be happy to take a doe. But the buck he shot was a young 8pt that i would have been thrilled to shoot as my first, and was bigger than mine or my sons first real buck. No way was i going to diminish his first buck by saying it was too young or too small.

I feed year round, set up plots, and have a lot of deer. I need to reduce mouths to feed and am not worried about creating monsters but if i can occasionally break 170-180” typical deer then i feel good. The genetics are there for 200+” nt deer in my area, and a 170-180” tupical would be an amazing deer. So thats my goal. Wont happen every year or even every 5, but once a decade or so with the correct weather (drought hurts for several years).


Curious to hear the OP ideas. I think management goals are so individual to the property it is hard to generalize.

Having said that, incentives for management are pretty much not going to work. The only option would be to set limits and stick to them. The “incentive” for following your rules on your property is you get to come back the next season and enjoy hunting it again. That’s my 2 cents…
 
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
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Colorado
I really like the pre hunt training with trailcam pictures mentioned above. As many have said, if they don't listen to your wishes on your land, they don't belong there. If you have good folks coming in, and help them to really understand what is off limits, they will respect it.
 

Rich M

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Jun 14, 2017
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Orlando
There is always someone trying to create monster racked bucks in areas without adequate genetics. They tend to get others on board but the others often sneak little bucks out cause they get tired of waiting for an acceptable buck to walk by.

The whole kill off all the does thing has long reaching effects. So he shoots all the does off his 100-500-1,000-whatever acres and the neighbors still have 5 or 6 does per buck. Where the bucks gonna be?

Stop reading the books, go to a state where they have big bucks and shoot you one while NR licenses are still for sale.
 
OP
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squirrel

WKR
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May 25, 2017
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324
Location
colorado
Some interesting ideas here, thanks to all that took the time to respond.

Property is 326 acres /se Kansas creek bottom. After only 1 year of observing we have 180+ potential. Wife and I get 8 either sex and 10 more doe tags if we wish. Based on last year I think I need to kill 30+ does as a starter. We had 50-100 deer in the beans every afternoon by 3;30 last October.
D3A78E1A-378C-463C-9F73-16DFEB71CF65.jpeg3CE1E13A-DE44-4054-BD7B-2424576C5A79.jpegD3A78E1A-378C-463C-9F73-16DFEB71CF65.jpeg
Ive been rolling around weapons restrictions, archery only as one option. Also open sighted and straight walled cartridges only in rifle. I've kinda soured on this one the more Ive pondered it though.

I passed on some 160's with my bow last fall, saw two giants in rifle, the mrs passed on a 200" because he was NTyp... go figure.

I do know one thing for sure, I am going to opt for doe only until I can come up with a very conservative and effective way to not get burnt on excessive buck harvest. I have enough issues with trespassers let alone self inflicted damage from within.

One thing I can say owning a very nice property sure generates phone calls from the distant past!3CE1E13A-DE44-4054-BD7B-2424576C5A79.jpeg
 
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