Hunting Ethics

[Marble]

Did you even read the situation I post on the shot? Not aiming for a shoulder just got unlucky and had that bull move his shoulder back during the shot. Should have aimed farther back than I did. As far as tracking are you just assuming I wasn't going to because I was. I was just giving him time to bed or or die, before starting the tracking process. Not sure if you are confused or what.

I dont think he's confused. I think he doesn't understand the different situations and considerations when it comes to tracking.

And with shot placement, the weirdest stuff can happen with arrows and animal movement.

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[GSPHUNTER]

Bottom line guys, he was the only one there and only he knows how it went down. I said it before, a lot of seasoned hunter have not put their shot right on target, it happens, it happened to me on an Elk at 250 yards I had absolutely no good rest so I took the shot off hand, I hit, but not a good hit, I think I hit lower shoulder. She went down and but for the rest of the heard, which we did not see, coming out from behind a stand of Junipers she may have staid down but. she got up and took off with them. We went over to the spot where she was standing but did not see any blood. The recent snow had all but melted off and the heard ran through the soft Adobe mud and covered all signs. We followed their tracks for some time but never found the heard or my cow. I have relived that shot many times and in hindsight, I think, short of having the guide kneel down and let me use him for a rest, I took what I thought was a a kill shot. There was a slight wind where we were and who knows what it was doing between us and the cow, maybe that had something to do with it, who knows. I know I have opened myself to criticism but, you weren't there you don't know how it went down.

 

[sndmn11]

If the shot wasn't intended to hit shoulder that's not a matter of ethics, it's just bad luck. If the animal is mortally wounded as it seems the OP thought, then why push it at all? It's not unethical to give time for the animal to expire and then take up the blood trail. No ethical hunter desires an animal to suffer. But it would be more unethical to push a wounded animal that may never be retrieved because a hunter couldn't be a little more patient.

He said he was comfortable with the shot and would take it again, even said it was a good shot placement. That spells out to me that the arrow hit where intended, why else would he pat himself on the back with good shot placement AND say he would do it again any day?

It was a shot I totally felt comfortable with. He was slightly downhill, quartering away at 40 yards. Shot placement was good. BUT he flinched and dug in when the bow went off and move that front quarter back just enough to have that arrow just knick it and slow it down enough to only get one lung. It's a shot I would take again any day. Just come off the shoulder other inch or so next time.

Well, wait a minute, now that his "good" shot placement has been called out in this "Ethical Question", the tune seems to change slightly to should have aimed further back BUT it was still the bull's fault and some gosh darned bad luck.

Did you even read the situation I post on the shot? Not aiming for a shoulder just got unlucky and had that bull move his shoulder back during the shot. Should have aimed farther back than I did. As far as tracking are you just assuming I wasn't going to because I was. I was just giving him time to bed or or die, before starting the tracking process. Not sure if you are confused or what.

I am not confused, I am reading what you deliberately chose to type out. Did you track the bull out to to private land, or take the word of the two yahoos you ran to the internet to rally support in condemning?

Suddenly I here crashing and look up to see the spikes and raghorn round the corner and take off up the hill past me. 2 minutes later just below the rise where I can't see that hillside erupts. Can't see any elk but assume it's my bull and his cows. Sure enough 30 seconds later the guys come over the hill inform me it was infact my bull they saw trailing his cows as he disappeared over the hill side towards private. They tell me they have shot that raghorn and his mechanical didn't deploy right and only got about 2 inches of penetration. They leave and wish me luck.

The words you chose to write depict a situation where you made some assumptions, couldn't see any elk, and your conclusion on what happened to the bull is based of two guys who were not there when you shot it and have no idea what the bull looked like. Your bull could very well be lying dead while those guys walked right by it and you gave up based on their word.

You asked for a discussion on ethics, and I think what YOU did on both the shot and the lack of follow up was unethical. Our lives as hunters do not depend on shooting an animal, I don't think there is any reason to take questionable shots because the likely outcome would be questionable results. Calling scapula shots with an arrow good shot placement that should be done any day qualifies as an ethically questionable shot to me. Shooting an animal and not tracking it out, at least in Colorado, is so far past unethical that it is actually illegal.

 

[WhatToHunt]

He said he was comfortable with the shot and would take it again, even said it was a good shot placement. That spells out to me that the arrow hit where intended, why else would he pat himself on the back with good shot placement AND say he would do it again any day?

He said, "...looked like it may have clipped the back end of his shoulder blade when he flinched when the bow went off."
We can all try to make the best shot, but we cannot control an animal moving once that arrow is released. He's not wrong to say he'd take the shot again considering he didn't expect that bull to flinch. If told us he knew 100% it was going to flinch, then we'd all criticize him. That's just not the case.

 

[Dos Perros]

Some of y’all’s teachers have failed you too.

 

[jesseward01]

Tt

To make sure I'm following- you waited about 45 minutes before the two guys came in. Assuming it took at least 15 minutes for the two guys to move in on the elk before getting their shot, the bull you hit had been hit for at least an hour. The injured bull stayed with his cows to follow them uphill. From my experience, it is unlikely that bull was mortally wounded. If he was, he would have likely broken off from the cows and not headed uphill.

Perspective is often not reality. Here is a bull feeding that I'm 99% confident the hunter thought he had killed. Buddies had him on camera acting completely normal.
View attachment 330696

I'm not saying this is exactly what happened in your situation, but it sounds at minimum possible.

As to the ethics, it's hard to form an opinion without being there and/or hearing both sides. My guess is you told the guys you had been waiting 45 minutes and they figured your bull is either dead or not going to die based on the shot description. As to what size of animal a person should be hunting, that is up to each guy to decide. They have every right to pursue a raghorn if they so choose. Guessing from the description, they were likely new elk hunters and would have been pretty excited to get him.

Last question - Did you contact an LEO or landowner in an attempt to continue following the bull you hit?

Ttt

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

This isn’t a debate in what’s legal. This is a debate on ethics, and courtesy, and doing the right thing.

I said "You can ask someone not to go in. But they have every right, as disagreeable as we may find it, to say "no" and move in. Not much you can legally do after that.".

Plenty of illegal options, which I neither recommend nor suggest, to prevent another hunter from moving towards the general direction of where your wounded animal is. This is why I said "Not much you can legally do after that" once you asked them to not go in. So I apologize if my wording was not as clear as it could have been.

And on your second part I do apologize if "as disagreeable as we may find it" is confusing as well. Pretty much everyone agrees it was a jerk move on their part; this includes myself which by definition is part of "we".

 

[sndmn11]

We can all try to make the best shot, but we cannot control an animal moving once that arrow is released. He's not wrong to say he'd take the shot again considering he didn't expect that bull to flinch. If told us he knew 100% it was going to flinch, then we'd all criticize him. That's just not the case.

Result 1 = Scapula
Lesson from result 1 = do it again!

It isn't a stationary 3D target, it should be expected to possibly move. Aiming at the shoulder, a part of an animals anatomy that is literally designed specifically to move, and then wondering why it moved is silly. Isn't the standard for an elk and arrow to strive for both lungs? Not coincidentally, the thoracic cavity isn't designed to dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge like that squirrely scapula and houses both the lungs and the heart. It is also the size of a kitchen sink and well off of the scapula.

 

[Bowhunting WI]

OP, I feel for you, tough deal all the way around. Public land hunting really sucks some times.

Had it been me you ran into on the mountain, I'd sat down with you, offered you some snacks/water and helped you track your bull. Had we found him, I'd have helped quarter and pack him out with you too. Sometimes, as a human/hunter you just need to slow down and do the right thing.

As for the noise on this thread, ignore it. Those of us that have hunted long enough know that sometimes s**t happens. There is no need to argue with those who lack reading comprehension skills or those have zero experience in shooting/tracking elk or deer. Anyone who doesn't understand the importance of giving wounded game the time to die, or doesn't understand the concept of "when in doubt, back out" has either never hunted, or never actually shot game while hunting. In either case, their opinion on the matter is nothing more than:

-BHWI

 

[WhatToHunt]

Result 1 = Scapula
Lesson from result 1 = do it again!

It isn't a stationary 3D target, it should be expected to possibly move. Aiming at the shoulder, a part of an animals anatomy that is literally designed specifically to move, and then wondering why it moved is silly. Isn't the standard for an elk and arrow to strive for both lungs? Not coincidentally, the thoracic cavity isn't designed to dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge like that squirrely scapula and houses both the lungs and the heart. It is also the size of a kitchen sink and well off of the scapula.

First things first, fantastic Dodgeball reference! HAHA!
I think we're arguing different things but we won't be convincing each other anytime soon.
If he aimed for the shoulder, that's no good, but he's said he aimed behind the shoulder and the elk then moved upon arrow being released. If something similar to this has never happened to you or others, I hope that streak of great luck continues.
With the penetration and description of pouring blood, I would have waited like the OP planned to do. Unfortunate ending regardless.

 

[rob86jeep]

Hey guys so I had something pretty unreal happen to me last weekend while bow hunting elk. I shot a herd bull in the morning around 8am. Arrow went in only about 8 inches and looked like it may have clipped the back end of his shoulder blade when he flinched when the bow went off. Unlucky and I should have drifted off his shoulder more. I saw he was pouring blood but seemed to not act sickly but made his way down the hill over a little rise back to where his cows were. After seeing how much blood was coming out of him and where the arrow was/penetration I figured I must have only got one lung. So I decide I would sit on him for 5-6 hours hoping he would either bleed out, or settle back down so I could sneak in and get another arrow in him. After sitting there for about 45 minutes I see two spikes and a raghorn coming up the bottom towards me. I don't think much of it and after about 15 minutes they disappear behind the hill where my bull and his cows are. Right as they disappear two guys come running down the hillside next to me. I whistle and stop then and go over to talk to them. I explain my situation. They tell me that they really need to kill a bull and that they are going down after that raghorn and will try not to bump my bull. To back up we are in a trophy unit about 5 miles away from the vehicles. I can't believe it. I think well since they are going down there I might as well try and sneak in and see if my bull is dead or if I can get another arrow in him before they blow the whole thing wide open. As I make my way down there and start tracking can see he is coughing up blood which pretty well confirms the one lung shot. Suddenly I here crashing and look up to see the spikes and raghorn round the corner and take off up the hill past me. 2 minutes later just below the rise where I can't see that hillside erupts. Can't see any elk but assume it's my bull and his cows. Sure enough 30 seconds later the guys come over the hill inform me it was infact my bull they saw trailing his cows as he disappeared over the hill side towards private. They tell me they have shot that raghorn and his mechanical didn't deploy right and only got about 2 inches of penetration. They leave and wish me luck. My question is, is it unrealistic to assume that people would have common respect for their fellow hunter and back out and leave elk if it meant another person could get/have a chance at their own? Or is it just part of the game and it's every man for himself now? Just want to know if my anger and frustration is misguided? Thanks guys and sorry for the long post!

Just curious, how long did you ask them to wait for? If it was the 5-6 hours you planned to wait originally, I think that's an unrealistic request personally.

On the flip side, there's a lot of hunters that lie to other hunters to try and get them to not hunt "their area." If we lie to other hunters when they are looking for advice/help locating animals, we can't expect them to believe us/do what we want when it benefits us. This isn't directed at you, just a general statement.

To answer your original question, I don't think it was necessarily wrong for them to keep hunting or would have been wrong to sit and wait. The devils in the details here that we'll never know (how many other hunters tried to get them out of the area for selfish reasons, how often they're able to locate elk, how long you asked them to wait for, how much time they had left to hunt due work/life, etc.).

 

[sndmn11]

First things first, fantastic Dodgeball reference! HAHA!

To be frank, I had to look it up.

 

[aidan_downey]

He said he was comfortable with the shot and would take it again, even said it was a good shot placement. That spells out to me that the arrow hit where intended, why else would he pat himself on the back with good shot placement AND say he would do it again any day?


Well, wait a minute, now that his "good" shot placement has been called out in this "Ethical Question", the tune seems to change slightly to should have aimed further back BUT it was still the bull's fault and some gosh darned bad luck.



I am not confused, I am reading what you deliberately chose to type out. Did you track the bull out to to private land, or take the word of the two yahoos you ran to the internet to rally support in condemning?

The words you chose to write depict a situation where you made some assumptions, couldn't see any elk, and your conclusion on what happened to the bull is based of two guys who were not there when you shot it and have no idea what the bull looked like. Your bull could very well be lying dead while those guys walked right by it and you gave up based on their word.

You asked for a discussion on ethics, and I think what YOU did on both the shot and the lack of follow up was unethical. Our lives as hunters do not depend on shooting an animal, I don't think there is any reason to take questionable shots because the likely outcome would be questionable results. Calling scapula shots with an arrow good shot placement that should be done any day qualifies as an ethically questionable shot to me. Shooting an animal and not tracking it out, at least in Colorado, is so far past unethical that it is actually illegal.

I literally stated later on in the thread that despite what the yahoos said I still tracked the bull to the edge of private. Just called the landowner last night. Won't let me on to look. You assume and do not read. You already have your mind made up on what happened in this situation and what you think about me as a hunter. That's fine, you're wrong but that's your opinion. Not going to try and change that.

 

[sndmn11]

I literally stated later on in the thread that despite what the yahoos said I still tracked the bull to the edge of private. Just called the landowner last night. Won't let me on to look. You assume and do not read. You already have your mind made up on what happened in this situation and what you think about me as a hunter. That's fine, you're wrong but that's your opinion. Not going to try and change that.

Good job then, sounds like you are halfway there with one of two issues down.

 

[hh76]

Lose, lose situation for most. If they call of their hunt of the animal they were after, they are upset. If they continue on an risk bumping your bull, you're upset.

I don't know you, and I certainly don't know the situation like you do, so I hope I don't offend. Depending on my situation, I probably would have avoided the area like you asked, but I would probably be thinking you were the a-hole for wasting my opportunity at the animal I was after? That's just how the world works when two parties are trying to reach a goal, but only one can.

 

[Kevin Dill]

The most incorrect thing happening here are people who think their personal ethics should be understood and held by others. Ethics are simply values of behaviors and it's a mistake to think others will share them automatically. Like any 'this is wrong or right' argument, it all depends on the person and their individual beliefs.

 

[bozeman]

Dude, sorry. But your way off here.

The OP did the right thing.

If I thought I only had a one lung hit I may give it several hours. Or even overnight.

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So in waiting over night you are expecting all other public land hunters who have hiked 5 miles (per OP info) to change all plans for YOU? This is the rub I have with this. The other 2 made an effort (who cares if they are local as the OP is slanting info) to get back that far, but ‘sorry guys, I made a shot that only clipped one lung maybe, so this whole area is off limits now’. Hope u enjoyed your hike in, now go hunt some other public land……..yeah, ok…..

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

I literally stated later on in the thread that despite what the yahoos said I still tracked the bull to the edge of private. Just called the landowner last night. Won't let me on to look. You assume and do not read. You already have your mind made up on what happened in this situation and what you think about me as a hunter. That's fine, you're wrong but that's your opinion. Not going to try and change that.

You’ve gone above and beyond on attempting to recovery the bull. Hopefully the landowner will have a change of heart.

 

[aidan_downey]

So in waiting over night you are expecting all other public land hunters who have hiked 5 miles (per OP info) to change all plans for YOU? This is the rub I have with this. The other 2 made an effort (who cares if they are local as the OP is slanting info) to get back that far, but ‘sorry guys, I made a shot that only clipped one lung maybe, so this whole area is off limits now’. Hope u enjoyed your hike in, now go hunt some other public land……..yeah, ok…..

Didn't ask them to wait overnight, just a couple hours. Didn't say they needed to hike out and stop hunting. Didn't block off the entire couple thousand acre piece of public. Just asked for them not to go over that hill for a couple hours. Even told them locations of other elk. If you believe they are ethically in the right thats fine. Just wanted to clarify your assumptions.

 

[Marble]

So in waiting over night you are expecting all other public land hunters who have hiked 5 miles (per OP info) to change all plans for YOU? This is the rub I have with this. The other 2 made an effort (who cares if they are local as the OP is slanting info) to get back that far, but ‘sorry guys, I made a shot that only clipped one lung maybe, so this whole area is off limits now’. Hope u enjoyed your hike in, now go hunt some other public land……..yeah, ok…..

You're inflating what he said into somethingelse. No one said what you just said.

If I had a bull that had just been shot and ran into two guys headed exactly in that direction, or if I were the two guys, I would wait.

Guys, if someone shoots a bull and is being ethical by waiting and appropriate, reasonable amount of time to let it expire, be respectful and give the respect you would want.

It is public land, people can do what they want. It just makes it better when we are able to help others out when we can and do the right thing when given the opportunity.

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