Ice Axe Size

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I guess I'm a minimalist and see no reason to lug a larger and little heavier ice axe around instead of a pair of trekking poles.....at least when hunting in no snow or ice. I've been on 4 sheep and goat hunts in Alaska and numerous sheep/goat hunts in the lower 48 and never needed anything more than trekking poles. As mentioned above, if you are putting yourself in a position where an ice axe is needed when there is no snow or ice you shouldn't be there! When I put my wrist through trekking poles I can really torgue on them inside the handle....similar to what I do when downhill skiing. Not sure you can do this same thing with an axe?

If hunting in a lot of snow and ice I can see the advantage to an ice axe but when hunting without snow or ice? I would think some type of cramp-ons or rubber/metal pull-ons would almost be more important than an axe in slippery conditions?

For me an ice axe is more like a multi purpose tool, and not really used much in icy/snowy conditions. I’ve used mine as a walking stick a lot, but also for helping with climbing up really steep cut banks out of creek bed, climbing up steep slippery slopes, cutting a trench/French drain on the up hill side of my shelter for diverting water/rain around the shelter, digging out a flatter area to pitch my shelter on, and cutting/chopping the rib cage away from the back bone on animals when I didn’t have the time or patience to do it with a knife. There’s probably more that don’t come to mind right now but basically I just find it to be a really nice tool to have in the field for many different purposes. I wish I could say that it also replaces my trekking poles, but I’ve come to rely too heavily on my poles to replace them with a single ice axe.


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Jimss

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It sounds like you have lots of uses for an axe and think it's worth carrying both. Some of the things you mentioned can be avoided or use a rock or something else. I try to keep my weight and bulk down so opt not to lug one around....but that's just me!

There is no way I would leave my trekking poles behind when hunting steep, nasty places! I don't think I would rather have a axe in one hand and a pole in the other. Around 95% of the time I wouldn't use an axe for anything and the extra support with poles is often a must-have! I don't think I would want to switch up a pole for axe every time I cross a boulder field, go down a rock slide, etc. where pole support is critical.

The other nice thing about using 2 trekking poles is they are telescoping. I usually have the uphill pole shorter than downhill pole. I can also change heights depending upon the slope and if I'm going uphill vs downhill. I don't think that is possible with axes?

Maybe I'm missing something and an axe offers more support?
 
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Joined
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It sounds like you have lots of uses for an axe and think it's worth carrying both. Some of the things you mentioned can be avoided or use a rock or something else. I try to keep my weight and bulk down so opt not to lug one around....but that's just me!

There is no way I would leave my trekking poles behind when hunting steep, nasty places! I don't think I would rather have a axe in one hand and a pole in the other. Around 95% of the time I wouldn't use an axe for anything and the extra support with poles is often a must-have! I don't think I would want to switch up a pole for axe every time I cross a boulder field, go down a rock slide, etc. where pole support is critical.

The other nice thing about using 2 trekking poles is they are telescoping. I usually have the uphill pole shorter than downhill pole. I can also change heights depending upon the slope and if I'm going uphill vs downhill. I don't think that is possible with axes?

Maybe I'm missing something and an axe offers more support?

That’s understandable, and as someone who counts every ounce, I struggled with The pros and cons vs. 20 oz. weight gain myself, but at the end of the day, I just end up finding too many uses for an axe to not have one on the mountain. For the majority of my hiking around I am using trekking poles and the axe is on my pack, and I often use my poles for my shelter set up, so two trekking poles are also one of my must have items. I guess for me an ice axe is kind of like crampons/microspikes, I might go on a hunt and never even think about using them, or I might go on a hunt and get tons of use out of them. I feel like both are invaluable when needed.


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tdot

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Question to the guys who run with ice axes. If you have an ice axe in one hand, and a pole in the other, do you feel out of balance? Akward, Weird?

I've only used an axe as a walking stick. Or poles. Never have the two met.... and my experiences with axes were a number of year ago.

The reason I ask, is I'm pretty much sold on a mid style tent. But not convinced that two hiking poles lashed together is what I want to rely on. So likely to bring a carbon center pole. In a quest to make everything more useful, I'm considering designing/building one that can also be used as a walking staff. Possibly dropping the poles all together.
 
Joined
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Question to the guys who run with ice axes. If you have an ice axe in one hand, and a pole in the other, do you feel out of balance? Akward, Weird?

I've only used an axe as a walking stick. Or poles. Never have the two met.... and my experiences with axes were a number of year ago.

The reason I ask, is I'm pretty much sold on a mid style tent. But not convinced that two hiking poles lashed together is what I want to rely on. So likely to bring a carbon center pole. In a quest to make everything more useful, I'm considering designing/building one that can also be used as a walking staff. Possibly dropping the poles all together.

I’ve never used them together, and usually use my trekking poles for hiking, so I can’t answer your question. What size/type of mid are you looking at, or do you have? The reason I ask is because, if you’re using a 1–2 person sized mid, many of them can be pitched using both of your trekking poles in an A-frame configuration, eliminating the center pole all together. I typically prefer to pitch my smaller mids this way, as I feel that it’s nice not having that center pole in the way. Obviously, bigger mids won’t really allow for this type of pitch.


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Vek

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Did single pole + 100cm axe on a dall hunt once, and it worked fine using both at the same time.

You can't collapse an ice axe handle...nor can you break one without some serious effort. The same cannot be said for poles. Glacier and talus hunts are rough on poles.

I bought the smc capra 100cm and de-fanged the head somewhat. Ground the adze into more of a square shape with rounded corners, and shortened the pick by a few cm. It's not an ice tool for me; it's a walking tool that I can use to arrest on mud or snotgrass. Looks like the SMC model is now called Kobah.

The price for not bringing an axe is more effort spent finding a suitable camp. The axe can change the game by hewing a bed into sloped ground or working drainage around your tent.
 

tdot

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I’ve never used them together, and usually use my trekking poles for hiking, so I can’t answer your question. What size/type of mid are you looking at, or do you have? The reason I ask is because, if you’re using a 1–2 person sized mid, many of them can be pitched using both of your trekking poles in an A-frame configuration, eliminating the center pole all together. I typically prefer to pitch my smaller mids this way, as I feel that it’s nice not having that center pole in the way. Obviously, bigger mids won’t really allow for this type of pitch.


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Looking at either the DCF Cimmaron or the HMG Ultamid 4, or maybe something else. I'd decided on the Cimmaron, but they are currently dealing with a material shortage, so a July delivery seems likely now. Trying to decide on alternatives.

Thanks for the tip on the smaller mid/ a frame setup. Long term plan is to add a smaller mid into the quiver.
 

Jimss

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I guess the obvious question is what if you want to leave your tent set up at your base camp and you use your trekking poles on the tent? No trekking poles for that day?
 
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I guess the obvious question is what if you want to leave your tent set up at your base camp and you use your trekking poles on the tent? No trekking poles for that day?
Yeah, or you can just pull one trekking pole into the center and use the other one to hike with. In the past when I've used the A-frame pitch, and want to use my trekking poles for the day without moving my shelter, I just pull them out, make sure the shelter is covering everything well (maybe place a few flat rocks on it to keep it pinned down to the ground good), and leave it for the day. I've done that many times and never had a problem, even when there's been rain on those days. Again, as long as everything is covered well and pinned down well, it shouldn't be an issue. When you get back to camp, just take the rocks off, and put the poles back up underneath the mid, and you're all set. No need to even mess with the stakes or guy lines, everything stays as it was.
 

Josey D

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No, I have the 100 cm Capra also that I’ve been happy with, and I don’t really see any advantage to that newer version. Plus I like the pretty blue handle better anyway.


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Just rattle can it :) I had a red handle & used the camo spray paint & duct tape on the top, looks much better now.
 

THBZN

Lil-Rokslider
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I'm going to purchase an ice axe soon for alpine hunts. I've been looking at sizes. What do you recommend?

I am leaning towards the actual height-based recommendation for ice axes for mountaineering rather than the trend some guys go with here of the long ones that are almost trekking pole size. The reason is I've seen it recommended that you use the smaller size for manuevering in the case of actual need to stop a fall. I do think the long ones would be a little too unwieldly self arresting. I would use a trekking pole in the other hand and I'm normally pretty okay with one trekking pole on more mild terrain.

I appreciate your thoughts.

Long or short when it comes to ax length and self-arrest doesn't matter much. Check a few vids on how to properly self arrest, and the ax is used cross-body to drive the pick into the snow/ice while simultaneously "riding out" the faster part of the slide on your knees, not your boots, especially if you are wearing crampons with front points. You can easily end up flipping yourself over backwards. That being said, if the slope is moderate, the snow is on the softer side and you are only wearing boots, digging the toes in can assist in slowing you down faster. Snow firmness and angle of the slope factor in on how you slow your fall/slide.

I would recommend a tether to clip the ax to your waistbelt, etc. as dropping an ax high up a steep snowfield is a great way to watch it rocket down the slope and now you are SOL regarding your tool. If you want to go with lightweight and on the shorter side, check out THIS ax and pair it up with THIS tether. The 60cm ax length is good. Blue Ice makes great stuff. Lastly, always wear gloves if you are on terrain that may require self-arrest; your hands will be hamburger if you have to put the brakes on quickly via self-arrest, and are digging your top hand (on the ax) into the snow/ice. It hurts like hell!

Also, be aware that using one trekking pole and one ax while crossing a snowfield will get tricky fast if you do slip and need to self arrest, as now the pole is either going to be dropped or flail around on the wrist strap while you are trying to stop your fall. I am coming at this from a climber's view, not necessarily just a hunter's view. Climbing and hunting are two things I have focused on and been passionate about over the last 25 years. If I am traveling in an area where I need an ax, I typically also have a harness, crampons, gear to build an anchor and crevasse rescue gear, and am usually part of a roped team (glacier travel with crevasse risk or a slide into a talus field).

If you are on a true icefield with an ax and crampons, forget about self-arrest; you are going for a ride. No amount of self-arrest technique will stop you on actual ice, especially if it is over 30° steep. But if an ice ax is going to be part of your kit, go with the lightest one you can and no need for anything near 100cm. The primary use is for self-arrest; campsite prep, etc. as listed by other posters are additional benefits of the ax. Good luck and be safe out there.
 
OP
I
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Long or short when it comes to ax length and self-arrest doesn't matter much. Check a few vids on how to properly self arrest, and the ax is used cross-body to drive the pick into the snow/ice while simultaneously "riding out" the faster part of the slide on your knees, not your boots, especially if you are wearing crampons with front points. You can easily end up flipping yourself over backwards. That being said, if the slope is moderate, the snow is on the softer side and you are only wearing boots, digging the toes in can assist in slowing you down faster. Snow firmness and angle of the slope factor in on how you slow your fall/slide.

I would recommend a tether to clip the ax to your waistbelt, etc. as dropping an ax high up a steep snowfield is a great way to watch it rocket down the slope and now you are SOL regarding your tool. If you want to go with lightweight and on the shorter side, check out THIS ax and pair it up with THIS tether. The 60cm ax length is good. Blue Ice makes great stuff. Lastly, always wear gloves if you are on terrain that may require self-arrest; your hands will be hamburger if you have to put the brakes on quickly via self-arrest, and are digging your top hand (on the ax) into the snow/ice. It hurts like hell!

Also, be aware that using one trekking pole and one ax while crossing a snowfield will get tricky fast if you do slip and need to self arrest, as now the pole is either going to be dropped or flail around on the wrist strap while you are trying to stop your fall. I am coming at this from a climber's view, not necessarily just a hunter's view. Climbing and hunting are two things I have focused on and been passionate about over the last 25 years. If I am traveling in an area where I need an ax, I typically also have a harness, crampons, gear to build an anchor and crevasse rescue gear, and am usually part of a roped team (glacier travel with crevasse risk or a slide into a talus field).

If you are on a true icefield with an ax and crampons, forget about self-arrest; you are going for a ride. No amount of self-arrest technique will stop you on actual ice, especially if it is over 30° steep. But if an ice ax is going to be part of your kit, go with the lightest one you can and no need for anything near 100cm. The primary use is for self-arrest; campsite prep, etc. as listed by other posters are additional benefits of the ax. Good luck and be safe out there.

The idea of the 100cm ice axe is that it’s long enough to be like a staff or trekking pole. Probably not ideal for technical climbing but the rugged terrain that hunters in isn’t quite the same as the climbers haunts.

Would the 100cm be concerning to you as far as being unwieldy for self arrest? I think that’s the main benefit of the long ice axe over trekking poles in terrain that’s starting to get spicy—rather than snap your trekking pole you can really put some weight on the long ice axe as needed.
 

THBZN

Lil-Rokslider
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The idea of the 100cm ice axe is that it’s long enough to be like a staff or trekking pole. Probably not ideal for technical climbing but the rugged terrain that hunters in isn’t quite the same as the climbers haunts.

Would the 100cm be concerning to you as far as being unwieldy for self arrest? I think that’s the main benefit of the long ice axe over trekking poles in terrain that’s starting to get spicy—rather than snap your trekking pole you can really put some weight on the long ice axe as needed.

It might be a bit unruly, but it will work if things go sideways and you are looking at a real slide on steep(ish) terrain. I don't like using an ax that long in place of a trekking pole and in reality, no ax manufacturer builds an ax as long as most trekking poles when extended into a "useful length". I run my poles at around 125cm (48-50") but going uphill a little shorter, so you would likely get away with the 100cm ax. I look at it this way:

If the terrain is even remotely steep enough for me to ask "do I need to break out the ax", the trekking poles go away. Terrain like that many times requires some good front-pointing (with stiff boots and/or crampons) and kicking steps to make upward progress. The ax is my tool to either plunge the spike in via "cane style" or use the pick with my hand on top of the ax or choked up short on the ax handle and digging in. Also, traversing vs. going straight up changes things a bit -- a slip on a traverse where you are side-hilling on steep snow can be more common than going straight up where you are kicking in and aggressively using the pick on the ax.

The good thing is a methodical, safe approach on even steep snow slopes is quite safe -- being sure of the conditions, having at least 3 points of contact on the slope at all times, etc. makes for pretty safe traveling. I would rather kick steps up a steep snowfield with an ax in my hand vs. hopping around and across talus any day of the week.
 

tdot

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Lots of good info. But I would personally hesitate to use a long leash for a mountaineering axe. I get why it may be appealing, but if you fall and if you lose a grip on your axe, you now have an axe attached to your body, tumbling with you at face height....a couple "if's" but still something to consider.

I can see how it would make alot more sense if climbing vertical ice. Personally if I was in a situation where I could lose my axe or I needed it for a self arrest, it will be on a wrist leash.
 

tdot

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It might be a bit unruly, but it will work if things go sideways and you are looking at a real slide on steep(ish) terrain. I don't like using an ax that long in place of a trekking pole and in reality, no ax manufacturer builds an ax as long as most trekking poles when extended into a "useful length". I run my poles at around 125cm (48-50") but going uphill a little shorter, so you would likely get away with the 100cm ax. I look at it this way:

If the terrain is even remotely steep enough for me to ask "do I need to break out the ax", the trekking poles go away. Terrain like that many times requires some good front-pointing (with stiff boots and/or crampons) and kicking steps to make upward progress. The ax is my tool to either plunge the spike in via "cane style" or use the pick with my hand on top of the ax or choked up short on the ax handle and digging in. Also, traversing vs. going straight up changes things a bit -- a slip on a traverse where you are side-hilling on steep snow can be more common than going straight up where you are kicking in and aggressively using the pick on the ax.

The good thing is a methodical, safe approach on even steep snow slopes is quite safe -- being sure of the conditions, having at least 3 points of contact on the slope at all times, etc. makes for pretty safe traveling. I would rather kick steps up a steep snowfield with an ax in my hand vs. hopping around and across talus any day of the week.

Does your recommendation on the length of ice axe change if it is unlikely to see snow? And is used mainly on hard ground?

All of my experience with an axe is in snow. I always keep it in my uphill hand if it's being used for support, plunged in snow, etc.

On dry ground, I've only used poles, and very different techniques.
 

THBZN

Lil-Rokslider
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Does your recommendation on the length of ice axe change if it is unlikely to see snow? And is used mainly on hard ground?

All of my experience with an axe is in snow. I always keep it in my uphill hand if it's being used for support, plunged in snow, etc.

On dry ground, I've only used poles, and very different techniques.


Personally, if the chance of traveling on snow is really limited or not likely, the ax stays home. It really doesn't make a ton of sense to drag one along if it isn't going to be use as it is designed.

Ice axes make poor trekking poles on terrain with NO snow, and trekking poles are pretty useless during self arrest. Just my personal experience over the years.
 

Vek

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The question of axe length vs. poles is how it's held in hand: a walking axe is used like a cane, with your palm pushing down. And, one can push down on a cane significantly harder than hammer-fisting a trek pole. The shorter relative length of the axe is appropriate for that, but the hunting axe needs enough length to be useful to push off going uphill or brace going down. We're not spending any time on 50° snow, so the normal rules for sizing an axe don't apply, and a "normal" axe is useless for walking on flat or lesser-sloped ground.

There are places other than snowfield slopes where the ability to roll to your stomach and set a pick might be useful. I've seen steep sloped dirt-turned-mud on a high north cascades divide, steep rotting veg turned snotgrass there and on Kodiak, and hard dirt/mud with embedded shale in a scree chute in the Wrangells. These are places where avoidance can mean miles of distance or thousands of feet of vert. These aren't typical and generally are avoided, and I got through without falling, but climbers have more options than hunters in route selection and avoidance of obstacles. The added length of a long axe isn't going to inhibit deployment of the pick, and I don't want a plastic pick or a telescoping handle in a non-snow arrest scenario.

Ultimately, they're $100 +/-. Try a long one and see. Take it to the ski hill and do some arrest practice. Carve the head down with a grinder to a size better suiting the intended use. You have more money tied up in baselayers than the axe.
 

Athame

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Maybe I'll go out and give it a try but I'm thinking self arresting with the longer axe is probably more difficult. It might sound counter intuitive but all that extra shaft could make it harder to get ahold of should it come loose in a fall. Perhaps, catching the spike at a bad time or in a bad way might also be more of an issue. Think of, for instance, rag dolling. Gently falling on one's stomach then sliding down and effecting a full Hollywood self-arrest might not be the way it happens. I have the 90cm Black Diamond and I use it a lot and one thing I can say about it is when it gets really steep it's definitely more cumbersome than my 65cm.
 
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